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Samsung...120hz LED..or...240hz LCD


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#1 of 13 OFFLINE   Jimmy Reece

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Posted February 16 2010 - 09:01 AM

I have a dinosaur...61" Samsung DLP which is 7 years old; but I still love it!
I am considering a 2nd HDTV but have limited space in a cabinet where I housed my 1st HDTV (38" Tube RCA).
I am looking at two 46" Sammy's...one is an LCD with a 240hz refresh rate and 150k contrast ratio. The other is an LED with a 120hz rate and a 5mil contrast.
Which makes more sense if they are comparably priiced? Do I get enough bang out of the high contrast LED to give up half on the refresh rate of the LCD I guess is my basic question.
Your input, as always, is greatly appreciated!
Jimmy

#2 of 13 OFFLINE   Steve Schaffer

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Posted February 16 2010 - 02:57 PM

I'm guessing the LCD is a LN46B750 and the LED is a UN46B6000 or 7000? 

LCD and LED are both LCD, the "LED" set uses an array of light emitting diodes for a backlight instead of the Cold Cathode Flourescent used by conventional lcds.  In the case of all but the UNxxB8500 series sets the Samsung LED's are not actually backlit.  Instead the LEDs are arranged around the edges of the screen behind the bezel with light diffusers to channel the light inward and out thru the lcd panel.  This is done solely to achieve an extra thin cabinet and actually degrades pq because of excessive "flashlighting" (looks like flashlights are shining in from the edges toward the center of the screen during dark scenes) and "clouding" (lighter patches or "clouds" seen on black screen).

The extremely high advertised contrast ratio on the LED sets is at some sacrifice too. 

All LCD sets have problems producing true blacks because it's impossible for the LCD pixels to totally block out light from the backlight.  For this reason they all have a feature that automatically dims the backlight during dark scenes in order to make it easier for the LCD panel to block the light.  LEDs can be dimmed more than CCFLs so there isn't as much light to block and hence they can advertise a higher contrast ratio.  

The problem is that if there's a bright section of the picture in a primarily dark scene that bright part will dim very much more noticeably on the LED sets.   Some very expensive LED models (the UNxx8500 Samsungs are among these) are not lit from the edges but actually are lit from behind and have separate lighting "zones"---something like 120 of them that can dim separately from each other to keep the bright parts of dark scenes from dimming excessively.
These sets are designated as having "local dimming".

So basically you have a choice between a 240 hz set with less flashlighting and clouding and an excellent "real" contrast ratio vs a 120hz set with significant flashlighting and clouding and dimming of bright parts of dark scenes but a really sexy thin cabinet.

Did I also mention that the edge lit LED Samsungs have plenty of HDMI inputs but due to the thin profile only one component input and none of the other types while the ccfl set you're looking at has a full complement of input options?

Then there's the fact that a very good 50" plasma (Samsung PN550 or 650 or Panasonic S1 or G10) can be had for much less than either of these lcds and will have better blacks and much better fast motion handling than either of them along with more accurate color reproduction. 


Steve S.
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#3 of 13 OFFLINE   Jason Charlton

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Posted February 17 2010 - 02:28 AM

Fascinating stuff, Steve.  Thanks for the info!

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#4 of 13 OFFLINE   blambert007

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Posted February 17 2010 - 02:47 AM

Steve S
so, are you saying that the Samsung UNxx8500 isn't worth the $$$?

#5 of 13 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2010 - 05:00 AM

hi guys

Steve is right on the money....I wish more sales pros had this expertise.

I can not see any visual difference between 120 and 240 Hz panels.


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#6 of 13 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted February 17 2010 - 02:47 PM


Quote:
I can not see any visual difference between 120 and 240 Hz panels.
 

Neither could Widescreen Review in their NOV, 2009 issue. Marketing is at it again.
"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#7 of 13 OFFLINE   Michael TLV

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Posted February 18 2010 - 01:31 AM

Greetings

Don't forget that the LED ones also use less energy than the CCF ones. (On the same settings)

Plasma sets have considerably better viewing angles versus the LCD ones.  At optimal viewing distances, most LCDs are good for two people at most seeing the best image.  More than that and the colors and blacks start to shift noticeably.

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#8 of 13 OFFLINE   Jimmy Reece

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Posted February 19 2010 - 01:31 AM

My fear with Plasma was extended of the digital music channels offered, which has a stable image for minutes at the time, the screen would suffer "burn-in"...is that no longer the case, and am I more safe from that illness with either LCD or LED?
Thanx for all the terrific comments as always!

#9 of 13 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted February 19 2010 - 06:03 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV 

Plasma sets have considerably better viewing angles versus the LCD ones.  At optimal viewing distances, most LCDs are good for two people at most seeing the best image.  More than that and the colors and blacks start to shift noticeably.
A friend's new VIZIO 40" LCD is easily watched from ~80-deg off axis (a glancing angle) with no apparent color shift. At least none that you care about if you're watching casually from that far off center :)

I also note that a recent demo of a 240Hz LCD panel looked noticably different from my Plasma. The LCD had a funny, overly-fluid cartoony look compared to what I'm used to watching 24p mode on my Plasma.

My Plasma isn't perfect. You get used to the weaknesses after you've spent the money :)


#10 of 13 OFFLINE   Steve Schaffer

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Posted February 19 2010 - 03:53 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post



A friend's new VIZIO 40" LCD is easily watched from ~80-deg off axis (a glancing angle) with no apparent color shift. At least none that you care about if you're watching casually from that far off center :)

I also note that a recent demo of a 240Hz LCD panel looked noticably different from my Plasma. The LCD had a funny, overly-fluid cartoony look compared to what I'm used to watching 24p mode on my Plasma.

My Plasma isn't perfect. You get used to the weaknesses after you've spent the money :)
 
A lot of Vizios use an "IPS" (think I got that right) panel that is very good at looking the same off-angle and straight on but is thought by some to be a little lacking in contrast ratio. 

What you're seeing on the 240hz set is a product of the frame interpolation process, it's commonly known as the Soap Opera Effect. 

Steve S.
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#11 of 13 OFFLINE   Brian Serene

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Posted February 25 2010 - 09:54 AM

There is no need to spend about, $2,000 on a Samsung UN46B8500 to reap the benefits of LED back-lighting and local dimming.


I suggest that you find the Vizio 551/552.  In the 55 inch size you can find one for under $2,000.  They are 240Hz and are back-lit LED with local dimming.

Picture quality is outstanding.



#12 of 13 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 15 2010 - 06:48 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Serene 

There is no need to spend about, $2,000 on a Samsung UN46B8500 to reap the benefits of LED back-lighting and local dimming.


I suggest that you find the Vizio 551/552.  In the 55 inch size you can find one for under $2,000.  They are 240Hz and are back-lit LED with local dimming.

Picture quality is outstanding.

I couldn't agree more!

T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#13 of 13 OFFLINE   bob259

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Posted March 24 2010 - 05:45 AM

My fear with Plasma's is like what I got with my Toshiba after only about 3 years old.  A dead spot 8" from the right side,  4" across and half way down the screen of nothing.... It's getting annoying, but I don't have any idea what to get, was thinking of the Samsung LED... now I wonder about that choice too.