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Greedo shooting first and George Lucas.


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#1 of 425 OFFLINE   Darren Pillans

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Posted December 08 2001 - 02:21 AM

Hey all,

There's one thing I've been curious about for a while.

Has anyone, anywhere, at anytime (ie: A fan convention, press conference or interview) asked George why Greedo now shoots first? And will he ever restore the original scene?

If nobody ever has asked him this, why the hell haven't they?

Surely George must know this alteration has been met with nothing but disgust.

#2 of 425 OFFLINE   Dan Hitchman

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Posted December 08 2001 - 04:09 AM

Lucus, obviously, doesn't give a shit about what we, as fans, think.

He's lost his touch-- some say he lost it right after American Graffiti. One only has to see the lackluster, kids-y feel creeping into Return of the Jedi in 1983 to watch his downfall.

Dan

#3 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 04:39 AM

I would agree that Lucas has lost his way artistically. Unfortunately, he's been swallowed up by the marketing-let-me-play-with-my-tech-toys monster instead of focusing on sound moviemaking fundamentals.

#4 of 425 OFFLINE   Nick White

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Posted December 08 2001 - 05:16 AM

No one yet has really addressed the question, you've simply bashed Lucas, which I know there has been plenty of in other threads. We're all aware that most are unhappy with the direction Lucas' work is taking these days, but I am still curious if anyone has even asked him about this particular alteration. I'd be interested to hear his answer..
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#5 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 05:29 AM

In what venue would anyone ask him? I've never heard of independent journalists having access to him one on one to ask. The closest we get to such responses is prepared statements from a Lucas "spokesperson".

#6 of 425 OFFLINE   Richard Kim

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Posted December 08 2001 - 05:51 AM

Here's Lucas's response on the Greedo change. It's
from the Star Wars: Behind the Magic CD-ROM:

Quote:
"It was always meant that Greedo would fire first. In the original film, you don't get that very well. Some people thought that we should leave that ambiguous, but I don't like the idea that practically the first thing Han does is gun someone down in cold blood. We had three different versions of that shot. In one, Greedo fires very close to when Han fires. In another, three frames later, and in the third, three frames after that. We tried to figure out which one would be perceivable but wouldn't look corny. Many things are happening in and around that scene, so it's hard to perceive just what's happening even now. We tried to find that median ground. It's always this way with any film-what can the majority of the audience perceive, and what can't they perceive."

(bracing for more "Let's bash Lucas" responses)

#7 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 06:08 AM

Quote:
I don't like the idea that practically the first thing Han does is gun someone down in cold blood.



This is confirmation of what many of us have been saying--that Lucas simply decided he wanted the character portrayed differently. What's HIGHLY questionable is Lucas' claim that he never liked the original portrayal. It's pretty obvious that he DID like it the old way (else he wouldn't have MADE it that way), then simply changed his mind, notwithstanding his attempt to rewrite history.

#8 of 425 OFFLINE   Richard Travale

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Posted December 08 2001 - 06:11 AM

I think that if GL had originally made Greedo shoot first, then he would have had some kind of reaction from Han. I don't beleive that Greedo had shot first from the get go and that GL was afraid of people disliking Han too soon. I for one, thought it far cooler that this rogue that would shoot in cold blood was moved so much by the rebellian(and Leia and her gold) that he would become a hero.

Of course on the other hand, the Greedo shooting first does fit better with the story of how Han and Chewie met, showing that Han has always been a decent guy under indecent circumstances.

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#9 of 425 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted December 08 2001 - 06:14 AM

RobertR is correct.

Note how, in the Lucas quote, the mogul says "in the original film." What a telling remark. He unwittingly acknowledges that the "Special Edition" is in fact not the same film as Star Wars. As a result, I feel it was unfair that the earnings the "Special Edition" made were tacked onto the original's total gross. They should be separate. (And, I tell you, the "Special Edition"'s lapses into juvenile cutsiness is pretty much what nailed it for me regarding Lucas's marketing-driven franchise.)

Film revisionism is a seriously precarious proposition. Only Apococlypse Now Redux has pulled it off successfully.

#10 of 425 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted December 08 2001 - 06:59 AM

Why oh why does everyone keep speaking as if the 'Star Wars' films were never meant for kids!? I swear the adults who love these films act as if the series is their's and their's alone. These films from their inception was meant for adults AND children, hence the Ewoks, and Jar Jar, this was planned from the get go to have these types of kid friendly charactors, he did'nt "sell out" to the kiddie crowd.

To all those with the original trilogy on LD, you'de better go and shrink wrap those puppys because we won't see them on dvd. For Lucas, when it comes to this series, it's not about money, at least not primarily about money, he cares about how these films are presented, THAT'S why he's making the changes to them. If anything, all he's guilty of is loving his films, WHAT A CRIME!
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#11 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 07:11 AM

Quote:
Why oh why does everyone keep speaking as if the 'Star Wars' films were never meant for kids.....These films from their inception was meant for adults AND children,


The key phrase is "from their inception". In other words, the films started out for kids AND adults. However, beginning with ROTJ, and continuing with his revisions and his recent effort, it's obvious that Lucas has been making them more and more kid oriented.

And it's also obvious that he loves his films most when they are as marketable as possible.

#12 of 425 OFFLINE   Jeffrey Forner

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Posted December 08 2001 - 08:38 AM

Quote:
However, beginning with ROTJ, and continuing with his revisions and his recent effort, it's obvious that Lucas has been making them more and more kid oriented.

Robert;

Oh, you're in for a surprise with Episodes II and III. Posted Image
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#13 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 09:19 AM

Jeffrey,

Oh, you mean Lucas will reverse course and decide that darker is more marketable now? Actually, that wouldn't surprise me. Posted Image

#14 of 425 OFFLINE   Jon_B

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Posted December 08 2001 - 09:22 AM

When music artists do an updated version of their own song it's called a "remix". There should be some kind of equivalent term applied to directors who do the same thing.





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#15 of 425 OFFLINE   Kwang Suh

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Posted December 08 2001 - 09:44 AM

Quote:
When music artists do an updated version of their own song it's called a "remix". There should be some kind of equivalent term applied to directors who do the same thing.
It could be called getting "Lucased". Posted Image

#16 of 425 OFFLINE   Richard Kim

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Posted December 08 2001 - 10:14 AM

Quote:
This is confirmation of what many of us have been saying--that Lucas simply decided he wanted the character portrayed differently.

Ahem:

"It was always meant that Greedo would fire first. In the original film, you don't get that very well."

Quote:
Oh, you mean Lucas will reverse course and decide that darker is more marketable now? Actually, that wouldn't surprise me.


Geez, Lucas just can't win, can he? First he's accused of pandering to youngsters with TPM, and now that word is spreading that Eps 2 and 3 are going to be darker, he's called a "sell-out." (even though Lucas has been quoted as saying that this is how the prequels were always intended to be like) Posted Image

#17 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 10:24 AM

Quote:
In the original film, you don't get that very well


Correction: In the original film, you don't get that at ALL. Han CLEARLY is shown as firing first. That's the way Lucas shows it. If he had wanted to show it otherwise, he could have and would have done so. Therefore, he changed his mind.

Quotes from Lucas are not sufficient to make something true. And you're the only one who's used the phrase "sell out" with respect to Eps II and III. I certainly didn't.

#18 of 425 OFFLINE   Kimmo Jaskari

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Posted December 08 2001 - 10:31 AM

My opinion: not only is the cgi alterations glaringly obvious and ugly, they also are out of character for Solo. It's been debated time and time again really, and I doubt if we can add anything really fresh here, but even so.

Solo would never just gun down innocents left and right, but he does try to talk Greedo out of the whole standoff they're having. Failing that, the pragmatic side takes over and he figures it's better to shoot first and live than shoot second and die.

The alterations make them both look stupid - Greedo looks like an idiot who can't hit a target at 3 feet and Solo looks like some soft fool who didn't take the chance to save his own life.

It always made sense to me in its original form... and changing it afterwards was a bad decision. Just like changing the Vader/Luke scene where Luke deliberately lets go... he would never give Vader the satisfaction of screaming in that situation. Another poor decision from Lucas.

I don't know what he was thinking. The only plausible explanation I can come up with is that he wants his movies more politically correct or something, but I think it is a shame that quite a few changes were detrimental to the series.

And what the "#%¤"#% is up with that stupid out-of-place song and dance number in RotJ? Egad! Can you say "Let's create new characters we can turn into dolls and sell at extortionate prices!", boys and girls? Posted Image

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#19 of 425 OFFLINE   Richard Kim

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Posted December 08 2001 - 10:37 AM

Quote:
Correction: In the original film, you don't get that at ALL. Han CLEARLY is shown as firing first.

No, this is what happens in the original: we hear a loud BANG, alot of of smoke, and THEN we see Greedo's smoking corpse keel over. Visually speaking, it's rather ambiguous whether Han or Greedo shot first. In fact in the first viewing, it's rather suspensful, since the viewer is not sure if Han is shot.

EDIT:
And let me just say that I agree that the new alteration looks pretty stupid. I just don't agree with the whole "Han's character is totally changed and ruined" angle.

Quote:
And you're the only one who's used the phrase "sell out" with respect to Eps II and III. I certainly didn't.

You may not have actually said "sell-out", but your previous comments strongly hint that the darker tone of Ep 2 is motivated soley by money.

#20 of 425 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted December 08 2001 - 10:41 AM

Quote:
we hear a loud BANG

Yes, that's exactly right. ONE BANG. Which means ONE SHOT. HAN'S.

ONE person winds up dead. There is NO other way to interpret that scene.


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