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Will my sound system work?


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#1 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 08 2009 - 12:55 AM

Hi, im pretty new to this, but have picked up stuff over the last few days.
I want to run a car sub, with car speakers... at home.
I know that this can cause some problems with ohms and that, however i dont know what though.
Well, here is my intended setup:

Sub: VIBE Space CBR15 Twin Enclosure
VIBE - Products

Amp: Behringer EP4000. Planning bridging to 8 Ohms... correct me if this is wrong, but the subs have impedence of 0.5, 2 or 8 Ohms. This way i should get 1750W going to the Subs, right?

Surrounding Speakers: VIBE Space 6 Speaker
VIBE - Products
Planning to get 5, each with 120W RMS.

Amp: Do I Need One? If so... whats a good one to get?

I dont have a reciever for the system, as in a Hi-Fi or anything, which i need to get, yeah? if so, can you direct me to some good quality systems? I can afford mid range products, as you can see.

I would also like my PC/TV connected to my sound system. Would i need to go through the reciever, as in - tv, reciever, amp, subs/speakers? My PC is connected to my TV Screen, im using as a 2 in 1... its a wall mounted lcd tv.
If setting up this system, will the subs and speakers need to be kept away from the tv? i read something about keeping the tv away from the sub/speakers since theres no shielding from magnetic/electric disturbance, as they are car speakers - is this true?

I am getting a m8 to help wire it... but we are both unsure if this would work. I say there is no reason why not, as long its properly wired, right? I dont plan to exceed the RMS of the amp or subs or speakers, to avoid damage mainly.

Any information that can help me, is more than welcome! thanks for even taking the time to read this loooonnnngg post! Posted Image

#2 of 13 OFFLINE   SHS

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Posted May 08 2009 - 04:26 AM

Speakers produce sound waves. Sound waves fill the space your speakers occupy and you experience those waves when you are in that space. The total volume of a car is I guess 100-200 cubic feet. A small 10'x10'x8' room has 800 cubic feet of interior space. I would guess most theater rooms are at least twice that size.

I hope you are getting my drift here, besides room size there are design constraints as well. A car speaker sound will depend upon the characteristics of its mounting location. A home speaker is designed in its own enclosure and placement is much more forgiving. This could go on and on and I hope you reconsider. If you want individual components to build your own sytem then that is admirable and fairly afforable at Parts Express or the like. YMMV with your design and building skills.

Now if you insist on continuing the install of car equipment in a home then I think you need to worry more about how to install a hood latch on the front door. Then check whether your power window controllers may be converted to 120VAC and mount to your rooms windows. Then there is the whole emergency brake issue to consider.
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#3 of 13 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted May 08 2009 - 11:00 AM

To expand on Scott's reply - Car speakers are designed to play off-axis. That is, they are mounted low in the car door and you are at a very steep angle towards them. On-axis, where the speaker faces you, the highs can be extremely harsh. When designing a home speaker, you have to factor in the baffle width when measuring the frequency response.

Those enclosures are designed for cars. Depending on the specs of the speakers, you can use "car subs" in the house but the enclosure is much larger. In fact, I'm using so called car subs in the my home theater except my enclosure is 3 times the size of the recommended car enclosure.

The EP-4000 is just an EP-2500 with a new name. At 8 ohms at 20 hz you are probably getting 1,100w.

LCD TV's are not affected by magnets. Only CRT TV's.

The RMS rating of the speakers is thermal. For subs, you will reach the maximum excursion most of the time with much less power than the the RMS rating.

-Robert

#4 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 08 2009 - 01:47 PM

Okay, firstly thanks for the replies...

So... for the sub, i need to build my own enclosure, larger than the recommended for a car. i thought it easier to get an enclosed one, but if it wont suit my room, then i don't mind building one - it'll save me a bit too. For club music, R&B, DnB etc, would you recommend a ported or sealed enclosure? and the enclosure needs to be, what, roughly 3x greater in volume? if not, then how would i determine the size of the enclosure?

Gonna ditch the car speakers, since i can't do any complicated factoring of freq. response, and i ain't going to try. im going to just get some decent/good home speakers instead. can any1 point me in the direction of some good ones? maybe what you use in your home theater setup?

Concerning the amp, it seems the EP4000 is the renaming of the EP2500, so im gonna get whichever of the two i can get cheaper - all good right? Posted Image

Thanks again for taking your time to read and answer my questions, i am making great progress in my understanding related to my sound system. ;D

#5 of 13 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted May 08 2009 - 05:52 PM

Your sub's size and alignment (sealed or ported) are mostly determined by the driver's Theile/Small parameters. You plug a few numbers into WinISD or Unibox (my favorite) and it will give you recommendations. You can also change things like enclosure size and tuning frequency and see how the simulated frequency response changes.

If you can't find the T/S parameters for your sub then don't use it. If a company can't publish industry standard parameters for their product then it isn't a good product.

Your like to the Vibe product is in the UK so I am assuming that is where you are located. That does put you at a slight disadvantage in speakers available to you.

You need to find the speakers that sound good to you. As for what I use, I have the DIII as my center and the DII (the same mid and tweeter) as my mains. I'm building the seven of the Dayton Home Theater except using the mid/tweeter/mid design from another site. Subs are very similar to the Axis except mine are the quad voice coil sold under the TC Sounds brand name. I use an EP-2500 to power them.

-Robert

#6 of 13 OFFLINE   SHS

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Posted May 09 2009 - 01:54 AM

Give us a few more hints on your budget (mid-range means different things to different people) and if you own the place you are in. We need info on the room size and volume levels expected as well. Do you want a very clean clear mid-volume setup or a system that will make your ears bleed and the visceral experience of your chest being caved in? The reason I ask about owning is it opens up other possibilities for IB(infinite baffle) sub solutions or the like that may be built into the floor, walls or cielings at a relatively small cost.

Below are several links to sites you might want to browse through to get a feel of what you might want or like. Go listen to many types of speakers at retailers and let us know what sound you like. Many members have great suggestions for speakers that sound similar for less cost.

6ave.com

Crutchfield: LCD TV, Car Audio, Home Theater, Speakers, Plasma TV

Fry's Home Electronics | Computer Parts & Accessories, Software, Games, TVs, Cameras - Frys.com

Audio Receivers - eCOST.com - electronics, computers, laptops, mp3 players
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#7 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 09 2009 - 06:48 AM

First of all, thanks to SHS and Robert J. I am leaping closer and closer to my dream room. And I am living in London, UK, that's why everything is in £. I am choosing VIBE since i have heard the system in a car and it was awesome, and i feel is great value for money.

My room is 11.5' x 11' x 8' in dimension, which gives 1012 cu.ft. of interior space (i think). I am planning to renovate my room, and if i can build in my sound system, it would be an added bonus. My total budget for my entire sound system - subs/amp/speakers/receiver etc... is around £1000-1200. I would like to stay on the lower side, but a little bit more money for a larger change in quality of sound, is not an issue. For me, i want superior sound quality. So the EP2500 is around £250.

I have planned to upgrade the sub to the more extreme VIBE BD154P-V1, costing around £300-350. Its got better frequency response, and its dual 4ohm. I was looking at the look of the enclosure when choosing the Space CBR15 sub. But now, i don't need to worry bout that!
VIBE - Products

I have now downloaded Unibox, and WinISD, and am going to have plug numbers in and see what happens... the TS parameters are here: http://www.vibeaudio....ckdeath15p.pdf
Downloading it, and using/understanding it, are two different things. ;P
If i run into trouble, i will post it here. Hope you don't mind.

In my room renovation design, below my wall mounted LCD TV, i am planning to place my sub in the center, with 2 main speakers on either side of the sub. Would i require a gap between the sub and speakers, of greater than 6"?
Would you advise to go for surround sound (5.1/7.1) or go for 2 speakers (2.1), because i was told 5.1/7.1 is better for movies, but for music, 2.1 is better. I would love to get your thoughts and inputs. I listen to more music, than watch movies, and any sound system would be an improvement to my current setup. Posted Image

I want excellent quality, clean and clear, sounds at mid range volumes, 33-66% of max. I also would like to feel the music, have the feeling of my chest caving in, but not drown out my speakers. Since i have no idea any speakers, i will need to go listen to some in a few stores. But a point in the right direction would end hours of time wasted looking at poor speakers. Would it be better to build my speakers or buy ready-made standard speakers? as in.. my own enclosure for my speakers?

I may be needing assistance when building my enclosures, since i have never done so, but you got to start sometime, right? I have looked at the Parts Express DIY project site, and it seems pretty informative. A few questions regarding this... in the projects, it specifies specific woofers/tweeters, would i need to use those specified? I'm am guessing yes, so I would have to go listen to these speakers... how will i know how good they sound if the speakers are not enclosed?

So I have so far "spent" around £600 of my £1000-1200 budget. This leaves me some £400-600 to spend on a receiver and the speakers and making the enclosures and wiring. I can spare some extra funds, only if it will improve my system and be great value for money - ie. More bang for the buck. Posted Image

#8 of 13 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted May 09 2009 - 11:50 AM

diyAudio.com - audio projects by fanatics, for fanatics

This site is more international in population so you may find someone in your area that has built speakers. They can point you in the right direction. Since you are new to this I suggest a kit or a design that covers every aspect of the build process. I've been interested in the DIY speaker hobby since 1985 and I'm still learning. There is a lot of science, some art and a little voodoo.

The feeling of your chest caving in is attributed to an enhanced frequency in the 40 to 50 hz range. We call it bloated mid-bass. Also, to get this feeling you need to have a room the size of a phone booth. We strive for quality first and then SPL. Properly set up, your subs will never overpower your main speakers. You will calibrate them relative to each other.

-Robert

#9 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 10 2009 - 12:38 AM

I tried to use Unibox and WinISD, but having trouble with it. I dont know what to do with what i see. I got confused with Unibox, and with WinISD these are the parameters i put in (see below), although i am not sure its right. All the data is found on the TS Parameter sheet and the product description page.

Qts: 0.441
Qms: 2.448
Vas: 62.937 l (i assume m is the same as l, since putting the value in as m^3 gives a volume as big as my room)
Qes: 0.496
Fs: 45.308 Hz
SPL: 92.368 dB
Re: 7.200 Ohm
Pe: 7500 W ( I guessed its talking about the max. Wattage, not the RMS.)
Le: 1.836 mH
BL: 33.802
Xmax: 27mm
dia: 15 in (i guessed this is the diameter)
Z: 4 Ohm (i guessed this is supposed to me what i am wiring the amp as...)
Sd: 85.000 m^2 (i guessed this is the same as M)

Now i got a bit confused with what the graphs show and how to improve the sub, by changing volume and tuning frequency.

I have opted for a 2.1 setup, as stated before, and am looking at a pair of JBL ES90 speakers (Cost: ~£400). I decided to buy these ready-to-use speakers for the ease. I phoned a local dealer, who has them in stock, and he would be happy to set it up. But he said i need to decide on the amp i am going to use, since it would sound different with each amp, and then to listen to the speakers.

My Questions:

1) Could you please tell me the best setup that you could make for my sub enclosure? Please explain what you changed, so i can get a better understanding.

2) Do i need an amp for my speakers? If my reciever puts out 110W per channel, the RMS of the speakers, will i still require an amp?

4) Could you please guide me to a good receiver (and amp?) for this speaker? The budget for it around £300. I am assuming i would need a good one for my system, therefore injecting a bit of cash.

Thanks in advance. I can now see the finish line, although its still by using binoculars. Posted Image

#10 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 19 2009 - 02:23 AM

Hi HTF, Scott and Robert, its been a while and i have been reading a lot around the subject and have now gone for a completely new system! yep, i have scrapped almost everything except the amp, which i am now getting 2 of. This is what it comprises of:

Driver: RE XXX 15". (2000W RMS)
Enclosure: ~260L Ported, tuned to 15Hz. (My Custom Build)
Amp: Behringer EP2500. (Not sure, since RMS is higher than driver but it will handle it and i remember a discussion about how the amp doesn't send all the watts to the driver)

I have decided on two floor standing tower speakers (2.1 Setup) and i am custom building mine, however haven't sorted out the drivers i'm going to use. I may add a 12" for low bass, but not sure. I am going to have 2x 8"-10" for mid range, 2x Tweeter to take over from the mids till the top end, and 1x Super tweeter (full freq. range), to fill in the gaps in the system.

To get the best response, i am also going to build my own crossover board - got a m8 who knows what he is doing (electronics). Each tower will be around 1000W RMS, which may seem a lot, but it will be suitable with my sub. Both speakers are going to be run off a EP2500. I am currently looking to modify a design in the DIY section of Parts Express, using it as a rough template.

I now have learnt what each T/S parameter is and am no longer basing my system on Wattage and stated frequency response. I am now looking at people's opinions of each component on the internet. i have learnt how to use WinISD, but have also got a copy of BassBox6 Pro and XOver 3 Pro, which is i think is better in aiding my design. I have also got a copy of Designing, Building And Testing Your Own Speaker System, by David B Weems.

I have always considered hiring out my system locally for make shift parties, such as garden parties and bday parties in halls, so am going for SQ with the ability to go L. The old driver originally suggested was SPL, with a hint of SQ. Hence my new sub, at a staggering cost! I considered the W7 sub, but it don't go as low as these do, so for a little bit more, i get the best.

I am going for a great sound quality at normal listening volumes, and yet have the option to pump it up and maintain sound quality at party/small club sound levels. I know its a lot of work for a first build but i am confident i can pull it off - i have got myself a small workforce (some friends) to help. I have given myself 3 months for the build, working almost daily on it (with all the drivers, flared ports etc.

Budget was another restraint on my build, but now i am posponing the purchase of a new top range 52" lcd tv for some months, so my new budget for the complete system is now £2500. I hope to make some monies back by hiring it out. What i need help with is the receiver, and how the system should be wired, since i started my build here, i am looking for your highly valued comments and opinions on the new sub and the speakers. Without your help Scott and Robert, I would still be where i was 2 weeks ago. Thanks for taking the time to read this post, and am awaiting your replies.

#11 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 19 2009 - 11:20 AM

Some corrections to the last post...
Quote:
Enclosure: ~260L Ported, tuned to 15Hz.
I meant Fb of 17Hz.

Quote:
I am going to have 2x 8"-10" for mid range, 2x Tweeter to take over from the mids till the top end, and 1x Super tweeter (full freq. range), to fill in the gaps in the system.
I meant i am so far planning to use 1x 8" or 10" for mid bass, 2 x 6" for mid range and 2 x 2" Tweeters, and 1 x super tweeter to fill in the gaps.

I thought i would also include a few graphs of my subs - dB/Hz from BassBox Pro.

Attachment 1435

Attachment 1436

I havent adjusted them for my room on these graphs, but using the sample room and the internet, i know the lower end response should increase. What do you think?



#12 of 13 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted May 20 2009 - 01:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aodblade
I meant i am so far planning to use 1x 8" or 10" for mid bass, 2 x 6" for mid range and 2 x 2" Tweeters, and 1 x super tweeter to fill in the gaps.
A quality 6.5" or pair of 6.5's for the mid bass and a nice dome tweeter are all you need and the crossover will be much easier to design.

Browse the DIY Section at AVS Forum. Especially the DIY gallery thread that is stickied at the top. Look for user Shinobiwan. He is somewhere in England and designs and builds speakers.

As for the RE sub, that looks like a great design. Is this the old XXX series on the new one that has a frame that looks like an alien spaceship?

-Robert

#13 of 13 OFFLINE   aodblade

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Posted May 20 2009 - 01:57 AM

I will look into the two-way you are suggesting. I had my heart set on something no1 would be able to easily recreate, unless they were a true audiophile. Posted Image I am currently looking at the Vifa range, and am going to see which of their product line fits into my system neatly. I was thinking of getting Fi Q subs, but its a bit over-the-top.

I think its the new XXX series, since the place that sells 'em here in the UK only started selling these post '08, but i shall find out. I hope my enclosure does the sub justice. I aint too bad with my woodwork, however i have no tools... lol. I know a few builders, carpenters, etc. so i'm going to borrow their stuff when i can.

I have previously browsed the AVS forum, and the DIY gallery. It was a great inspiration to making me decide to go for custom built speakers. I shall look for Shinobiwan on AVS.

Thanks for your input Robert! I'll keep you posted on future developments! There may be a short delay now, for a month or so, since i got exams coming up. Once that's over, the project will begin! Posted Image





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