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2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing


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#1 of 38 OFFLINE   Chuck Pennington

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Posted March 13 2009 - 01:14 AM

Hey all!

I thought you guys might find this interesting. While viewing the new PINOCCHIO release on Blu-Ray, I noticed both the remix and restored mono mixes are missing dialog when compared to all the previous video releases of the film. How this happened is anyone's guess, though my hypothesis is that the soundtrack was rebuilt from whatever separate elements they had (to enable better filtering and noise reduction) and a few things were accidentally left out.

I just thought you guys might want to know. I haven't finished watching the movie yet, so there may be even more sound elements missing. I'm sure you'll flame me all over the place, but here goes!

1992 release - Jiminy says "Right!" after Pinocchio says his name


2009 release


1992 release - Jiminy says "Look out, Pinoch!" (ms)


2009 release


Anyone else have any thoughts? We've heard this before, most notably on the 2006 NIGHTMARE ON ELM ST where music cues and sound effects were missing (this master is also shown on HDNET MOVIES and HD THEATER and was used for the Canadian Blu release - all with the same mixing flaws) and when screams and such were missing from the original TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, even from the supposedly restored original mixes.

#2 of 38 OFFLINE   TravisR

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Posted March 13 2009 - 01:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
I just thought you guys might want to know. I haven't finished watching the movie yet, so there may be even more sound elements missing.
The "Right!" is the only bit that has been reported missing (there's a thread over in the HD section where this has problem been mentioned). I'm certainly inclined to think it's a mistake but there might be another explanation like it wasn't in the original and it was added to a re-release or a video release so I'm waiting to see if one of the many Disney-ologists out there can confirm that it was something that has always been in the sound mix.

Either way, Disney is way better than nearly every studio out there for issuing corrected discs so, if it's a problem, I'm hoping that there's a replacement offered at some point.

#3 of 38 OFFLINE   Eric Peterson

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Posted March 13 2009 - 01:59 AM

Were these clips intact on the original DVD release? You only mention the 1992 release.

#4 of 38 OFFLINE   TravisR

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Posted March 13 2009 - 02:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Peterson
Were these clips intact on the original DVD release?
Yeah.

#5 of 38 OFFLINE   Patrick H.

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Posted March 13 2009 - 02:13 AM

Both of those lines are also intact on the foreign language dubs, which leads me to believe it's probably a screw-up. It's been guessed over in the HD thread that they were dialogue overlays for the music track which were forgotten about during the restoration. It's odd that they're gone from the mono track as well...it would indicate that too is a reassembly of sorts.

#6 of 38 OFFLINE   Chuck Pennington

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Posted March 13 2009 - 02:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H.
Both of those lines are also intact on the foreign language dubs, which leads me to believe it's probably a screw-up. It's been guessed over in the HD thread that they were dialogue overlays for the music track which were forgotten about during the restoration. It's odd that they're gone from the mono track as well...it would indicate that too is a reassembly of sorts.

EXACTLY - And why was this only mentioned over in the HD forum (which I rarely visit, though I have Blu-Ray). The exact same flaws are on the SD-DVD release.

Every video release has had these lines in them. The clips I posted were from the 1992 restoration (released on LD and VHS in 1993, and then DVD in 1999), though the 1985 VHS and LD releases also have the lines, as do the 2003 international restored DVD releases (the film was reissued everywhere but in the US in 2003 with a transfer remarkably similar to the new 2009 edition - different colors than ever seen before, etc.). Only this 2009 edition is missing lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
The "Right!" is the only bit that has been reported missing (there's a thread over in the HD section where this has problem been mentioned).

Well, I'm mentioning the other omission now, then. And I posted clips to prove it.

#7 of 38 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted March 13 2009 - 03:20 AM

This is great reading. Like the guys that used to go frame by frame on animation CAV LDs to find errors. That's how they found those frames with attachments holding up parts of the original King Kong while doing the stop-motion animation.
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#8 of 38 OFFLINE   WadeM

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Posted March 13 2009 - 10:42 AM

It does bother me that those lines are missing. Some may say what's the big deal, but I'll just hold onto my DVD until they do it right--either through correcting the current Blu-ray, or in another 5-10 years when they reissue it again.
And this and Beauty and the Beast are my 2 favorite of all the Disney animated movies.

#9 of 38 OFFLINE   Chuck Pennington

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Posted March 14 2009 - 03:06 PM

What do you guys think of this scene, where Pinocchio's yellow shirt turns white, and then is splotchy white/yellow, and then yellow again?

Note that this did not happen in any of the previous releases. If this isn't a sign that the film has been largely processed and recolored, I don't know what is. Where is the quality control?

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The clip is here:


#10 of 38 OFFLINE   Kevin Martinez

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Posted March 14 2009 - 04:11 PM

It's a very faded yellow. People will bitch about the slightest, most inconsequential things to further their agendas, won't they?

#11 of 38 OFFLINE   TonyDale

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Posted March 14 2009 - 04:24 PM

"What do you guys think of this scene, where Pinocchio's yellow shirt turns white, and then is splotchy white/yellow, and then yellow again?"

I always thought it was the animators chose to animate the effect of that solo spot of theatrical lighting. . .
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#12 of 38 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted March 14 2009 - 04:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Martinez
It's a very faded yellow. People will bitch about the slightest, most inconsequential things to further their agendas, won't they?
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This is what we discussed here and though, it might seem like nitpicking to some of us, they are valid points. However, with that being said, I thought the BRD of this title looked and sounded great. It's not perfect, but I'm happy with my purchase and I hope more information becomes available to the inconsistencies pointed out about this latest release as to whether a mistake was made or not and if corrected discs will be made available to those that want them if any mistakes are acknowledged by Disney.







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#13 of 38 OFFLINE   Chuck Pennington

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Posted March 14 2009 - 04:45 PM

Here are some comparison clips. I apologize for the quality as I have to use Photobucket as the clips are automatically removed from YouTube when I try to upload them in a higher resolution there.

Note that the shirt stays yellow, and that the 2003 DVD clip is from the UK DVD as the US did not ever get this restoration on video (but the rest of the world did).

1985 Laserdisc


1993 Laserdisc / 1999 DVD


2003 DVD


Again, I have no problem with new, clean transfers and restoration. I'm not saying, "Let's go back to the 1985 Laserdisc!" No, not at ALL! But I want the original movie, not one that has been so processed and recolored as to be another creation altogether. Maybe on the next release we'll get an alternate angle with the restored film version without the recoloring and extensive filtering but with minor dirt/scratch removal - and with the slightest bit of original, natural film grain.

#14 of 38 OFFLINE   Dave Jessup

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Posted March 14 2009 - 09:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Our HTF mission statement:

We strive for the highest achievable quality (video and sound) to be recorded on DVD, to be sold and/or rented in a form free for consumers to use in their homes. We want to advance films to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image, as intended by the original creators, intact.
Crawdaddy

As at most a fringe Disney fan, but one whose other interests include audio and archival work I'm keenly aware that the omission of even one word of dialogue can make a difference.

Pinocchio was an important enough title in Disney's work for me to pick up the original home video release - in Beta.

If I were to upgrade, I'd want to be sure the upgrade was in fact an upgrade.

#15 of 38 OFFLINE   Brian Borst

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Posted March 16 2009 - 08:24 AM

It's getting complicated here. The missing bits of audio are included in the region B blu-ray (I checked it myself and it's verified by several others at UltimateDisney). I wonder what happened here.
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#16 of 38 OFFLINE   Joe Caps

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Posted March 16 2009 - 11:47 AM

I have the British special edition from a few years ago.
There, Pinoc shirt is light yellow with a white collar all the way through the scene.

#17 of 38 OFFLINE   rich_d

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Posted March 16 2009 - 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Borst
It's getting complicated here. The missing bits of audio are included in the region B blu-ray (I checked it myself and it's verified by several others at UltimateDisney). I wonder what happened here.

I will certainly be quite interested in hearing the explanation for this. If they used different source audio files, the question will then become why. If the answer has to do with the differences between regional releases they question then shifts to why there are differences in the regional releases and why they would involve audio changes.

#18 of 38 OFFLINE   ZackR

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Posted March 19 2009 - 01:56 PM

I came here wondering if anyone else had noticed these. I have this film memorized backward and forward. I probably watched it LITERALLY hundreds of times as a young kid. When I popped in this latest release, I noticed it immediately.

Unless this was somehow intentional (like, the original prints didn't have the lines or whatever), then I REALLY hope they fix this. I will honestly notice this every time I try to watch it.
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#19 of 38 OFFLINE   Sumnernor

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Posted March 20 2009 - 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZackR
I came here wondering if anyone else had noticed these. I have this film memorized backward and forward. I probably watched it LITERALLY hundreds of times as a young kid. When I popped in this latest release, I noticed it immediately.

Unless this was somehow intentional (like, the original prints didn't have the lines or whatever), then I REALLY hope they fix this. I will honestly notice this every time I try to watch it.
I don't understand your post! What lines?

I just bought the german region 2 Pinocchio DVD and the shirt changes from yellow to white. I checked with my DVD that I bought in 2001 and the shirt is always yellow. My initial impression is that the Platinum version has a much better PQ than my older version.

Exactly where is the missing audio? Is it also missing from the subtitles?

#20 of 38 OFFLINE   JeffMc

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Posted March 20 2009 - 06:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumnernor
I don't understand your post! What lines?


Did you read the first post in this thread? The lines are discussed there. It's lines of dialog, by the way, not scratch-lines - if that's what was confusing you.


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