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Buying an onkyo receiver-advice required


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#1 of 16 Aedave

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Posted March 06 2009 - 07:14 AM

I'm am in the process of buying a new speakers and receiver.

I have the speakers figured out - going with a 5.1 Klipsch F2 setup, Like the sound, local retailer special factory purchase price, easy upgrade to 7.1 with an extra pair of S2

The receiver choice is giving me a bit of a headache.
my needs:
-min of 100watts per channel
-must have an optical out (I still use minidisc-digital recording)
-On board decoding DD+, True-HD, DTS-MA
-Audyessy setup
-5.1 with ability for 7.1
-hdmi 1.3 switching
-pre-outs

A local retailer has a few new discontinued model/demo onkyo receivers for sale and willing to give big discounts if bought with the speakers. The manager mentioned he could sell me a 705 for around the same price as a 606, the also have a few 805, 875, and 905. The 875 and 905 are out of my budget and I'm not interested in their video processing. So it comes down to the 705 and 805 both seem like very capable future proof recievers. Considering they are 2007 model recievers, have most features that the current stuff has minus a few HDMI connections (thats ok getting the DVDO)

How do the 705 and 805 compare to each other? (specs, sound, value)
Is it worth getting the 805 if th difference in cost is 100$ of less?

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#2 of 16 Brent_S

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Posted March 06 2009 - 10:13 AM

Audibly, I don't think you'd hear a difference in blind A/B testing.

Technically, the 805 has a much stouter amp sectin (THX Ultra vs. Select) and it has Burr-Brown DACs instead of Cirrus. The B-B are spec'd better than the Cirrus, but neither will be the weakest link in the playback chain. You mention pre-outs as a requirement so the amp difference may be moot as well, but even at full power, you're talking less than 3dB difference using the same set of speakers. The Ultra spec does mean all of the 805's channels are stable into 3.2 ohm loads while Select only requires the front channels be stable into 4 ohms. The 805 also adds a 3rd zone that the 705 lacks. I think that covers the differences.

FWIW, despite knowing everything I've just written and using the receiver as a prepro only myself, I chose the 805 over the 705 when the difference was 120-150ish last year. At $200, I'd probably have picked the 705, but even $100 will cover that Harmony remote you'll want to get.

-Brent

#3 of 16 David Willow

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Posted March 06 2009 - 11:25 AM

I had the choice last year between the 705 and 805. After thinking about it for a few days, I couldn't find a good reason to spend another $200+ on the 805. Now, if the difference was less than $100, I think I would have purchased the 805.

FYI - The 805 does run hotter. It really needs space to breathe.

#4 of 16 Ed Moxley

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Posted March 06 2009 - 12:23 PM

I have the 805 and like it a lot.
I wouldn't close it in. Mine isn't closed in, and it doesn't get hot at all. I wouldn't close in any Onkyo for that matter...........
Good luck! Posted Image
Samsung HL61A750 (LED DLP)            Onkyo TX-SR805
Oppo BDP-83 Blu ray                                  Polk Audio LSi9
Polk Audio LSiC                                  Sony SS-MB100H
SVS PC12-NSD (Sub)                       ...

#5 of 16 Aedave

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Posted March 08 2009 - 08:19 AM

Well in general I plan on using the built in amp section for the immediate future. The speakers I am going to use are rated for 100wRMS and more dynamic. From my years in car audio I have developed the mindset that it is better to have Extra wattage than Just Enough. Why drive the speakers with an amp running near its clipping point, better to have the extra wattage, clipping always kills speakers.
The biggest appeal for the 805 is 130w vs the 705 at 100w, plus the brown-burr DA.(I have a CD head unit in my vehicle that uses a BB DA nice stuff).
I briefly had a talk with the sales guy and was told the difference in price is $100 between the two. So in general its well worth the extra to get the 805, from what I see.

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#6 of 16 David Willow

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Posted March 08 2009 - 10:02 AM

The difference between 100 watts and 130 watts is very, very small. That would not be a reason I would get one over the other. You may get 1 db more from the 805. Not much.

Too often buyers get caught up in the watts propaganda....

A better power supply, DAC, and speaker handling (4 ohm) would be good reasons.

#7 of 16 Aedave

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Posted March 10 2009 - 07:03 AM

The brown-burr is a big point for me, Higher quality DA is important.
The extra wattage does make a difference, dynamic headroom is the term as I recall. A laymans description would be 10 rowers going at 100% vs: 12 rowers going at 80%, the 12 have some flexibility.

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#8 of 16 LanceJ

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Posted March 11 2009 - 05:45 AM

......and a 100 watts into any Klipsch or other similarly high efficiency speaker for than a few seconds will cause cats, dogs, and most people to leave the room. Posted Image

Seriously, in my opinion 100 watts sent to an HT system's satellites will produce incredibly loud levels in most living rooms with just about any speaker system, and I'm just talking *stereo* here. Most times for background listening a receiver will be generating only from .5 watt (yes half a watt) to about 5 watts; and when watching a movie but not wanting to scare people with ref level (grandma or little kids), it might hit 15 to 30 watts. The wide variation is because of wide variations in speaker efficiency.

#9 of 16 Brent_S

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Posted March 11 2009 - 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedave
The brown-burr is a big point for me, Higher quality DA is important.
The extra wattage does make a difference, dynamic headroom is the term as I recall. A laymans description would be 10 rowers going at 100% vs: 12 rowers going at 80%, the 12 have some flexibility.

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Marketing people love you. Posted Image

Yes, the technical specs (S/N, dynamic range) are a few dB better for the B-Bs, but the Cirrus in the 705 will still exceed the capabilities of the rest of the playback chain. Implementation of a part is more important when the parts being compared are each more than competent. I would expect either DAC to be implemented equally well by Onkyo.

Dynamic range is the difference between loud and soft. Specifically with recorded music, it's the difference between the loudest and softest signal recorded on the disc. Unfortunately, we've been in the "loudness wars" for a while and most commercial releases have shrunk the recorded dynamic range to less than 6dB...as little as 3dB on some titles.

In terms of power, you need to double it to get 3dB more "dynamic range". 3dB just happens to also be the smallest incremental difference most of us can determine in a complex waveform. We can do 1dB in laboratory conditions comparing pure tones, but listening to sine waves gets old real quick. Posted Image

In terms of real world output capability, the 18 pound $100 Black Friday special (Pioneer 516) I use in my living room has enough power to run me out of the room...and the room is 6,000+ ft^3 with the front speakers 14' from the listener...and they're definitely not Klipsch level efficient. Too many people throw out dynamic range and headroom without understanding what it really means. Once you get to hearing damage level, or your personal pain threshold, how much more "headroom" do you need?

For $100, I'd say get the 805 so you won't have buyer's remorse, but I stand by my opinion that you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in a blind comparison.

-Brent

#10 of 16 David Willow

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Posted March 11 2009 - 01:23 PM

check this out: Peak SPL Calculator

Kinda puts it in perspective how little it takes to make your ears bleed. Watts may be a bragging right in the car audio world, but when doing a real home theater, it is WAY over rated by the marketing machine.

Of course you need that headroom to make the Honda Civic heard 5 blocks away Posted Image

#11 of 16 gene c

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Posted March 11 2009 - 01:58 PM

Quote:
check this out: Peak SPL Calculator
Just for fun, my two completely different rooms (except the # of speakers-5) are 108 and 108.9.
"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#12 of 16 Brent_S

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Posted March 11 2009 - 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Willow
check this out: Peak SPL Calculator

Kinda puts it in perspective how little it takes to make your ears bleed. Watts may be a bragging right in the car audio world, but when doing a real home theater, it is WAY over rated by the marketing machine.

Of course you need that headroom to make the Honda Civic heard 5 blocks away Posted Image

IME, his "gain from placement" is probably still a bit conservative...the key being my experience, but I've used large open-to-the-whole-house living room as well as sealed "theater" rooms so it's a pretty broad exposure. Even using corner placement with only 2 speakers, I've measured higher SPL than the calculator says I'm capable of in my current theater room.

BTW, David...I never saw any posts of the re-eval of listening modes you were doing to do over Christmas.

-Brent

#13 of 16 Aedave

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Posted March 11 2009 - 05:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Willow
check this out: Kinda puts it in perspective how little it takes to make your ears bleed. Watts may be a bragging right in the car audio world, but when doing a real home theater, it is WAY over rated by the marketing machine.

Of course you need that headroom to make the Honda Civic heard 5 blocks away Posted Image
Well guys I hate to spoil your wattage party, but I have never been a SPL guy. Although some of the Multiple 20+Speaker multi amp SPL setups were neat, not my thing. I have always been a SQ type, Sound quality is all about the sound. I still use my MB QuartPosted Image speakers that are over 10 years old, people keep asking if they are for salePosted Image .

The DA were a big deal in the car audio scene years back, I remember listening to the one CD with same amp and speakers with no equalization with different Head units. The lower quality stuff sure showed its colours, the brown burr units had the best soundPosted Image .

For what it's worth I'm pretty set on the 805 as it has the better set of Audio features. I would like to get 10 years out of my new reciever, I did 10 years with my last one.

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#14 of 16 David Willow

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Posted March 12 2009 - 05:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent_S
BTW, David...I never saw any posts of the re-eval of listening modes you were doing to do over Christmas.

-Brent

Sorry Brent. I should have followed up on that post....

I started trying different listening modes using a THX Demo II DVD and watched several movies I'm familiar with. Then I thought why not tune my sub to 16 Hz? So the adventure began. Posted Image

I grabbed the latest version of REW and got new batteries for my SPL meter. Over a few weeks, I moved my sub around (all 200 lbs) to find the perfect spot. I tweaked a few more times (moving it closer or farther from the wall) and finally got it dialed in (with the aid of Audyssey). I'm happy to say I'm pretty much flat down to 11 Hz. Posted Image

Since then I've gone back to PLIIx for movies and stereo for music. I never did decide what I liked better. But since you mentioned it again, I will take some time to listen. I have the 3 transporter movies coming next week. I'll give THX Select2 a good workout and let you know.

#15 of 16 DaveF

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Posted March 12 2009 - 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedave
A local retailer has a few new discontinued model/demo onkyo receivers for sale and willing to give big discounts if bought with the speakers. The manager mentioned he could sell me a 705 for around the same price as a 606, the also have a few 805, 875, and 905.
Admid the tech specs, I also think pricing is important. Online sales of Onkyo receivers (through authorized dealers) have been about 30% off MSRP for several months now. So if the retailer is offering the 805 for the 706's online price of $550, that might be a great deal. But if it's for the MSRP of $799, you're not being offered anything special as you can buy a new 806 for less.

You mentioned "demo": If these are these display models that have seen 12+ months of customer and salesperson abuse, I'd factor that into my pricing expectations as well.

And the fact that this is only if "bought with the speakers"...well, I'd really scrutinize the price.

But you don't mention actual dollars, so hopefully you're being offered a worthwhile deal.

#16 of 16 Dave Moritz

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Posted March 20 2009 - 04:48 AM

If you are sold on the Onkyo's definantly go with the 805 the reciever is a beast and you can not beat the audio section on it! Posted Image

Onkyo TX-SR805 7.1 Reciever
130 Watts per channel X 7 (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%)
High Instantaneous Current Capability: 60Amp
Amplifier Frequency Response: 5 Hz–100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Direct mode)
Decoder: Dolby Digital, DTS, DD+, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA
192K/24 Bit DACs - Burr Brown
DSP Type / QTY 32 BIT / 3
HDMI 3 Inputs / 1 Out
Audyssey Dynamic EQ
THX Processing Mode
Audyssey Auto Speaker Calibration W/Mic.
Component Video Bandwidth: 5 Hz–100 MHz (-3 dB)
Weight: 50.9 lbs. (23.1 kg)

IHMO the 805 will kill the 706 hands down no contest! I am saving up for a new receiver myself but am looking at a Denon AVR-3808ci. How ever if I can not come up with the money I would have no problem finding a great deal on a Onkyo 805! One of the things you give up on getting an 805 is less HDMI inputs vs a newer model and the 805 needs a well ventalated space. But at the prices the 805 can be had, it is worth its weight in gold. Posted Image

Now there is a deal from Denon right now if you buy a AVR-2809 and up they will give you a DVD-2500 Bluray to go with it.
1080p High Definition - Supporter of Lossless Audio - Supporter of 4K -  Current Library: 221 DVD's / 74 HD-DVD's / 219 Blu-ray's (293 HD Titles, 4K movies 0)

 



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