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Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Any Plans For a Remaster?


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#41 of 108 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

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Posted April 10 2010 - 09:04 AM

When it comes to Trek being re-released in a "better" format the discussion literally goes around in circles no matter where it's being discussed. /img/vbsmilies/htf/laugh.gif

#42 of 108 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted April 10 2010 - 09:14 AM

Hell, I'd go for a much higher bitrate DVD.. or whatever.  I still don't understand the hitches to that, in relation to a BD release.  BD as a format does support MPEG-2.  So, just use the extra space, release it as 480I/P BD content with nothing else except fewer discs, or whatever.  

But the bitrate on the DVDs for TNG/DS9/etc. is TERRIBLE.  No matter how good your player is, 3:20 of content on every disc plus menus means in MPEG2 the quality sucks.


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#43 of 108 OFFLINE   Mark-P

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Posted April 10 2010 - 09:32 AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR View Post
But the bitrate on the DVDs for TNG/DS9/etc. is TERRIBLE.  No matter how good your player is, 3:20 of content on every disc plus menus means in MPEG2 the quality sucks.

Actually only TOS ran 50 minutes per episode. All the spinoffs ran 46 minutes so that is about 3 hours 4 minutes per disc which really isn't bad for a dual-layered disc. There are some TV series discs, such as The Donna Reed Show that cram over 4 hours per disc.



#44 of 108 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted April 10 2010 - 09:41 AM

Donna Reed show was Black & White, however, yes?  Even if a higher compression is used, because grayscale color pattern is by default less the RGB/YUV, you should get better results at a lower bitrate. 

Maybe it's just the masters that are bad, but damn, watching TNG/DS9 even compared to equal age TV shows on DVD (or close, see XFiles) the quality is terrible.

But all of this aside:

The Blueray spec allows for MPEG2.  Several titles do use it.. there is no requirement on resolution rate.  So, what prevents manufacturers from putting out DVD content on BD, if for no other reason then cost savings in production/shipping/buyer convenience.  1BD=6DVD (rough) you'd pack a full season on one disc.  You'd think this would be a no-brainer for several series looking for release.  But that's me :)




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#45 of 108 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

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Posted April 10 2010 - 12:03 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR 
 So, what prevents manufacturers from putting out DVD content on BD, if for no other reason then cost savings in production/shipping/buyer convenience.  1BD=6DVD (rough) you'd pack a full season on one disc.  You'd think this would be a no-brainer for several series looking for release.  But that's me :)
 
I think it would be misleading for consumers who aren't on forums like this to release SD TV shows on Blu-ray discs because of the confusion of them not actually being HD.





#46 of 108 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted April 10 2010 - 01:47 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR View Post

The Blueray spec allows for MPEG2.  Several titles do use it.. there is no requirement on resolution rate.  So, what prevents manufacturers from putting out DVD content on BD, if for no other reason then cost savings in production/shipping/buyer convenience.  1BD=6DVD (rough) you'd pack a full season on one disc.  You'd think this would be a no-brainer for several series looking for release.  But that's me :)


 
As was already mentioned, 4 episodes of TOS that were remastered fit on a single dual layer disk so space isn't the issue here for DS9 episodes. I would venture at three reasons why not to release SD content on BR right now:
1. Confusion (as someone else stated)
2. Cost (I'm thinking it still cost more to manufacture BR disks compared to multiple SD)
3. It would severly limit who could purchase it (owners of DVD players vs. BR players)

However, I would imagine eventually this would all get reversed and BR would be used as a replacement for all DVD's.


#47 of 108 OFFLINE   Dave Scarpa

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Posted April 12 2010 - 02:45 AM

Well at least you'll be getting the sets alot cheaper than originallyy released. I'm Encoding my Sets for my Apple TV and I'll just put the Disks away once done.
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#48 of 108 OFFLINE   Dave Scarpa

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Posted April 12 2010 - 02:49 AM

I don't think it's a Bitrate issue, the problem with DS9 and Voyager to a lesser extent, is that DS9 was an extremely Underlit series, done so to make the Cardassian Station appear Cold and Dank, it's so Dark that no matter how much you crank the bitrate it isn't going to help, colors appear muted, and detail is lacking. Look at any of the Episodes that take place on a sunny well lit planet like the Episode "The Ship" it almost looks like an entirely different series, colors are vibrant and details pop. So having so many episodes set on the station is gonna keep the image of this series in the Murk.
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#49 of 108 OFFLINE   Joseph Burns

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Posted May 10 2010 - 12:28 PM

Bitrates on early season TNG and DS9 are quite poor. Macroblocking is very noticeable even on SD sets. While its true that the low-key lighting on DS9 tends to run headlong into MPEG-2's (and most codecs) exploitation of human attention to light by tossing more data from shadow areas, I've seen plenty of "Noir" lighting on DVD without these compression problems. Doubtless the interlaced nature of the footage is causing some of the trouble.


I look forward to hearing more about the TNG "test." Yesterday's Enterprise? The Best of Both Worlds? If they did those and decided not: release the test, I'll buy it!! After they roll out Enterprise, (perhaps also TAS), then CBS will be faced with the hard stuff. Low hanging fruit first. Especially in this economy.


That said, DS9 is tops and I would absolutely buy it on Blu-Ray, just hard to imagine the Dominion War in CGI coming in at under 10 million bucks. When the fleet drowns out the stars, that's a big render.


Still waiting on the Robert Wise Director's Cut of ST:TMP on Blu. I got him to sign my DVD, so that's special, but I still want the Blu! Maybe Daren Dochterman will sign that for me. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif


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#50 of 108 OFFLINE   Mark Collins

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Posted May 07 2011 - 07:46 AM

So i must assume there are no plans as of yet for a blu-ray of DS9.  I had just found this review 2 years old which must be bogus then from what all i have read here.


This review is from: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1993 TV Series) [Blu-ray] (Blu-ray)
According to a recent interview with the head of the team remastering the original series on Blu-Ray, Deep Space Nine will get the same quality remastering as TOS (minus redoing the special effects).

The quality of the Star Trek movies and TOS has been mind-boggling. They are some of the highest quality Blu-Rays on the market and are proving to be the "killer app" that Blu-Ray needed to truly drive it forward. I watched the original cast moives and season 1 of TOS, and it was like the people were standing in the room with me. It was almost spooky. The Star Trek Blu-Ray discs are truly a case where an investment in good equipment will be paid off in full. A Playstation 3 connected to a good Samsung series 7 or series 8 LED TV or a Sony LCD TV with 120hz/240hz refresh will give you an experience like nothing else.

Seeing Deep Space Nine at that level of quality is going to be incredible. From being able to count the five hairs on Morn's head to clearly seeing every detail in the incredible Jem'Haddar warriors, DS9 with the now-famous "Paramount Blu-Ray treatment" will be worth every penny of its price.

Good job Paramount!!! Keep doing it right!

I would have bought the dvds long ago but what i have read here on a bluray player they look really bad.


Would anyone say here that i should buy them used or at a cheap price???  I only have my vhs recording which i converted to dvds.  Would they look better then ep speed ???





#51 of 108 OFFLINE   Nebiroth

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Posted May 08 2011 - 05:07 AM

It won;t happen because whilst DS9 was certainly made originally on film, it was immediately converted to D2 videotape for all the editting. Plus, of course, all of the special effects were made on video.


To release the show on BluRay in any meaningful way, you would have to go back to the original film elements and use them to in essence completely recreate the show and at the same time re-do all of the effects. It's possible but would be ruinously expensive.


TOS and the movies were feasible as they're already entirely film, and TOS - due to the restrictions of it's time - has by today's standards a very minimal amount of undemanding special effects so it was possible to redo them in HD.



#52 of 108 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted May 08 2011 - 10:34 AM

I've been going through another DS9 marathon blast the last few months. I'm up to S6 now and just saw In the Pale Moonlight and His Way.

I'm watching on a 50" plasma and an upscaling Sony blu ray player. And I've been watching mostly in the daylight in a bright room. It holds up pretty well in those conditions. During the night club sequences during His Way where Odo and Vic are on stage and the blue spot light is on them in the smoke filled room, the image does suffer. Detail is harder to render. But overall, it's still very watchable.

Later, in Vic's room when he's talking to Odo, detail is better looking, the room is brighter lit. I look at hair and fabrics.


As the Romulan Senator said, the upscaled blu ray version of DS9 on the TOS S2 season set of Trial and Tribble-ations is a "Faaaake!" It was watchable though, it's tolerable and I usually get into the story and forget about it.


Interesting comment above about how TOS had relatively few effects shots compared to the modern series,. that's true. I can image what a hassle it would be to find original filmed pieces for The Best of Both Worlds. You'd not only need all the live action, but blue screen shots where Picard is standing in the front of the view screen when he tells Worf to tell the Admiral that they've engaged the Borg. Or when he's Locutis and in front of a process shot of the interior Borg ship behind and in front of him.

For now, I'm pretty happy to have the sets of every Star Trek series. And elated to have my favorite series, TOS in HD with and without the enhancements.



#53 of 108 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted May 08 2011 - 10:51 AM

God, I don't care about a huge redo, just release it with a hell of a lot better bitrate.  The DVDs that exist look poor; lots of blocking and artifacts.. just increase the bitrate and it'd improve it greatly.


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#54 of 108 OFFLINE   DeWilson

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Posted May 08 2011 - 12:36 PM



Originally Posted by mattCR 

God, I don't care about a huge redo, just release it with a hell of a lot better bitrate.  The DVDs that exist look poor; lots of blocking and artifacts.. just increase the bitrate and it'd improve it greatly.



Agreed - what is so wrong with BR discs that are the BEST presentation of current material? You can't get any more broadcast quality than a clean transfer from the VT masters to BR - most likely will look as Good (if not better) Than broadcast!


#55 of 108 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted May 08 2011 - 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by mattCR 
God, I don't care about a huge redo, just release it with a hell of a lot better bitrate.  The DVDs that exist look poor; lots of blocking and artifacts.. just increase the bitrate and it'd improve it greatly.


Originally Posted by DeWilson 
Agreed - what is so wrong with BR discs that are the BEST presentation of current material? You can't get any more broadcast quality than a clean transfer from the VT masters to BR - most likely will look as Good (if not better) Than broadcast!


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure increasing the bitrate will provide that much improvement when it is probably the source itself that contains the majority of the issues. I'm not an expert by any means but here is my reasoning:


Compare the DS9 release to the remastered TOS release:

- both dual layer disks

- both 4 episodes per disk (DS9 47 minutes per episode and TOS 50 minutes per episode)

- episodes for both series taking up about 2GB each

- episodes for both series coming it at a birate of around 5.3 mb/s each

However, TOS looks great on DVD and DS9 is plagued with issues. The bitrate between the two is basically a constant. So that makes me think a redo is the only way we will ever see it greatly improved. And that just doesn't appear in the works, at least not for a while.




#56 of 108 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted May 08 2011 - 01:40 PM

Part of it may be the source.. but I don't think as much as all that.  I judge by this:  my recordings taken off of TV (I believe TNT, but I'd have to check)- a few years back look MUCH better then the DVD.  The DVD has blocking, places where black becomes grey... etc.   You have to remember, the original series worked with a ton of Primary colors and large areas.. so an average bitrate should have worked to it's advantage.. in the same way that a bitrate such as that would cover everything that "Star Trek: TAS" could offer.  You are correct, there is probably some things with the media that can't be corrected; but when you have obvious MPEG artifacts in a black field that should be space (blocking artifacts) those wouldn't exist in any form until it was digital.. even if it was originally on video, it wouldn't have blocking artifacts.




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#57 of 108 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted May 08 2011 - 02:18 PM


Originally Posted by mattCR 
Part of it may be the source.. but I don't think as much as all that.  I judge by this:  my recordings taken off of TV (I believe TNT, but I'd have to check)- a few years back look MUCH better then the DVD.  The DVD has blocking, places where black becomes grey... etc.   You have to remember, the original series worked with a ton of Primary colors and large areas.. so an average bitrate should have worked to it's advantage.. in the same way that a bitrate such as that would cover everything that "Star Trek: TAS" could offer.  You are correct, there is probably some things with the media that can't be corrected; but when you have obvious MPEG artifacts in a black field that should be space (blocking artifacts) those wouldn't exist in any form until it was digital.. even if it was originally on video, it wouldn't have blocking artifacts.



It could just be the amount of dark scene's as mentioned about the space station that are having difficulty being resolved with any detail. Especially since I saw no glaring issues in Enterprise that I just finished.  I picked up DS9 a while back to have in my collection but have not watched it since seeing the original broadcast. Do you have any examples where this is readily apprarent that I could skip to. I watch on a 92" 16x9 projection system so i would think some like this should stand out.




#58 of 108 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted May 08 2011 - 02:31 PM

I'd have to grab it, but Season 3/4 stand out to me as to scenes where they look out of the windows of promenade.

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#59 of 108 OFFLINE   TheBat

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Posted May 08 2011 - 02:32 PM

I read that all the star trek series will be coming to netflix streaming. that includes deep space nine. I beleive the original series starts in july.


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#60 of 108 OFFLINE   Mark Collins

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Posted May 09 2011 - 04:55 AM

Thanks for all the info.  I wonder with movie next year if they will try an upgrade the way  Matt suggests.






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