Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

*** Official THE DARK KNIGHT Discussion Thread


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
832 replies to this topic

#41 of 833 OFFLINE   Chuck Mayer

Chuck Mayer

    Lead Actor



  • 7,996 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 06 2001
  • Real Name:Chuck Mayer
  • LocationNorthern Virginia

Posted July 17 2008 - 07:47 PM

Geez, so much I want to discuss Posted Image Some spoilers now, in the Discussion Thread. Nothing major, but...

I consider Batman an American icon, and to see the character treated with such creativity and understanding is just outstanding. Nolan really understands the psychology of the character, his supporting cast, and most importantly, the villains that reflect and refract upon him. His take on Dent is tremendous, building upon solid work in The Long Halloween, but taking it much farther. It's time to sleep soon, but rest assured, I'll be chattering away pretty soon.

Some odds and ends: I think the Bat-Pod will find a few fans, especially based on it's first appearance. Awesome. As was the Joker's magic trick when he was introduced to the mob.
Hey buddy...did you just see a real bright light?

#42 of 833 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

Nicholas Martin

    Screenwriter



  • 2,683 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 18 2003

Posted July 17 2008 - 08:10 PM

I felt that no one 'stole the show' in this. It was truly an ensemble.

I want to make a comment on the music as that's my thing that I pay almost too much attention to:

I consider Hans Zimmer to be well, poisonous. I loathe the man's work.
Although mixed far too loud at times, which drowned out some of the dialogue (which could have just been the theater I was in and not an indication of the true soundmix of the film) the pulsating rhythmic motif for Batman truly works here, as does the industrial noisy Joker music, which reminded me of a Jaws-like sense of foreshadowing whenever he would appear. Howard's Harvey Dent music on the other hand, was truly fitting an ill-fated hero.

There was something about The Batman being a kind of team effort, in that he is almost three people - the man who wears the suit, the man who builds the suit and technology, and the man who maintains and heals the suit's wearer. That felt just right to me. Can't explain why exactly.

All those trailers and TV spots gave away NOTHING, which is quite the accomplishment considering how many of them there were.

Sunday, Monday, I don't know when but first chance I get, it's IMAX time. It was fairly easy to see what shots were set up for IMAX because they looked fantastic in anamorphic so IMAX will be icing on an already beautiful looking cake.

#43 of 833 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

Paul_Scott

    Lead Actor



  • 6,546 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted July 17 2008 - 08:22 PM

I made sure to slam a few energy drinks before the show, so I'm not going to sleep for a while.
First off , I have to know...was I the only person in any theater last night who found it snort/laugh out loud funny when during the GCN interview with the 'identity revealer' Dents name is mentioned and the interviewer, in the truest, smarmiest, populist media kiss ass way, pauses to emphasize 'our thoughts and prayers are with him'? Because apparently I was the only one in mine to audibly appreciate the mockery.
I think the contention I'm going to have with other fans over this is over the performance of Maggie G. I was suprised to find she brought little to the role, seemed to exude only as much if not less authority than Holmes, and diluted the impact of the eventual fate because she was ultimately the stand-in for the person who (for good or bad) consecrated the role. I honestly can't see why people are reflexively saying she is such an improvment. I just don't see it- at all.
And I've been a fan of hers since Secretary and thought if Holmes had to be replaced she would be the ideal choice.
I think that is one of the elements holding the film back a little for me. Her line reading in the letter voice-over was just as cringe worthy as any of Holmes. Also, the character relationship with Bruce and Dent is nowhere near being as sound as I had expected from some of the released clips. A poor foundation to rest such a dramatic plot point on.
The other major disappointment that sticks out for me now is the writing at the end leading into the title. Painful purple prose dramatically subverts the impact of the lead-in to the title. It sounded false and phony, which is a shame because the sentiment was apt at that point and should have been a home run. I look forward to seeing the script to see how that can be reworded more effectively.

Oh, another big disappointment is Jim Gordon Jr. I hoped we'd see a better nod or two to Barbara this time.

#44 of 833 OFFLINE   Pete-D

Pete-D

    Screenwriter



  • 1,746 posts
  • Join Date: May 30 2000

Posted July 17 2008 - 09:30 PM

Just got back from seeing it.

This movie .... is dark. Dark. It's so dark it's almost depressing at times.

But it's good. A little over plotted at times but very good. You can't really even compare it to other comic book movies, because it's completely divorced itself from the genre I think. It's operating on a different level, the tone is just miles away from any other "superhero" movie.

My immediate reaction is that I like Batman Begins more, mostly because it had a bit more heart. But TDK is superb in its own right. The Joker is a genuinely frightening character.

I will be seeing it again tomorrow for sure. Just a few other thoughts (spoiler free): the Bat Pod kicks ass. I wasn't as crazy about the new Bat suit (the head mask looked a little silly at times) though. This is also the darkest, most violent PG-13 film ever made I think. It's pushes that limit to the edge (and only "cheats" once).

I'm actually going to stand up for Katie Holmes here, because I felt like she played that "girl you grew up with who used to come over to your house all the time" part dead-on in BB. She complimented the ensemble well. Maggie Gylennhal was solid, but I actually sort of missed Holmes here.

#45 of 833 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

Nicholas Martin

    Screenwriter



  • 2,683 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 18 2003

Posted July 17 2008 - 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-D
I'm actually going to stand up for Katie Holmes here, because I felt like she played that "girl you grew up with who used to come over to your house all the time" part dead-on in BB.

Well she had plenty of practice playing the same character on Dawson's Creek.

#46 of 833 OFFLINE   Brandon Conway

Brandon Conway

    Lead Actor



  • 7,305 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 30 2002
  • Real Name:Brandon Conway
  • LocationNorth Hollywood, CA

Posted July 17 2008 - 10:39 PM

My favorite moment of music was the return of the Wayne father/son theme, only this time with the Gordons. Perfect.

Loved almost every bit of it, for reasons illuminated. I do however agree with Paul about Maggie G. - the fact that a new actress is taking on the role lessons the effect of her storyline in the film to a degree.

My only real nitpick is that Sonar Vision Batman went a bit too far. They did they're best to set it up, and the surveillance aspect of it I bought no problem, but when the eye-screens came down it seemed a bit too much. But again, this is a very minor nitpick.

Otherwise, great show. Two best shocking Joker moments: pencil trick and stomach secret. Favorite shots: Joker walking away from the hospital (only one chance to get the shot and he NAILED it. Wow!) and the camera turning 180 when the Joker is hanging.

"And now the reprimand, from an American critic. He reproaches me for using film as a sacred & lasting medium, like a painting or a book. He does not believe that filmmaking is an inferior art, but he believes, and quite rightly, that a reel goes quickly, that the public are looking above all for relaxation, that film is fragile and that it is pretentious to express the power of one's soul by such ephemeral and delicate means, that Charlie Chaplin's or Buster Keaton's first films can only be seen on very rare and badly spoiled prints. I add that the cinema is making daily progress and that eventually films that we consider marvelous today will soon be forgotten because of new dimensions & colour. This is true. But for 4 weeks this film [The Blood of a Poet] has been shown to audiences that have been so attentive, so eager & so warm, that I wonder after all there is not an anonymous public who are looking for more than relaxation in the cinema." - Jean Cocteau, 1932


#47 of 833 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

Paul_Scott

    Lead Actor



  • 6,546 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted July 17 2008 - 10:42 PM

****SPOILERS AHEAD****

You've been warned!

I was thrilled with the resolution with the Joker and disappointed with the choice Nolan made with Dent. I HATE when villans are killed off, but the problem is that , conceptually at least, that seemed like the stronger way to go. It contributes mightily to the impression that the previous 2.5 hours had lasting consequence...notjust running around the bases and arriving back at home plate.

Odd, but in some ways Ledger's Joker left me a little bit wanting upon exiting the theater...which is the same feeling I had 21 years ago with Jack.



But then I remember a scene like the way he exited the hospital and think "Wow! ". A huge, one take only money shot, and he NAILED IT! There were plenty of other wonderful bits w/ him so I can't understand where the "is that all" feelings come from.And yet at the same time I was thrilled with how much thought Nolan put into the character. He had an agenda that was pitch perfect (to who the character is) and compelling, as was his methodical approaches to realizing it. Nolan GETS this character. That was so gratifying to see.

Harvey Dent was wonderfully realized as well, but I feel now like something was missing from the transition to Two-Face. Maybe it's because he was utilized in such a drastically different way from my pre-conceptions based on his use in other media. This was not THE Two-Face I knew or was expecting. Subsequent viewings may make this aspect stronger to me, as I get used to him only in the context of the story here, rather than things outside the film. My inital feeling was killing him off wastes so much potential .
But then I realize he served a huge function here, and that is worth more than the thought of future, repetative, comic style hero/villan escapades with him. Having him morph into just another 'this installments featured freak' would have probably done the character a big disservice.

#48 of 833 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

Paul_Scott

    Lead Actor



  • 6,546 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted July 17 2008 - 10:57 PM

Brandon, I swear to God I didn't read your post while I was drafting mine. Funny we had the exact same worded reaction to that scene. While I thin the oscar talk is reflexive over-hyping to an extent, the technical skill he displayed in that shot (in essence hitting his marks and not breaking character) IS worthy of recognition and praise. The success of the character I chalk up to a split between Ledger's performance and the level at which he was written. Ledger did disappear in the role...but he had something worthwhile to disapper into.

#49 of 833 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

Tim Glover

    Lead Actor



  • 7,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 12 1999
  • Real Name:Tim Glover

Posted July 18 2008 - 01:13 AM

Paul,
I'm on with you regarding Maggie G. This was a surprise for me thinking she would be stellar. First, it's not a huge part, but she really seemed out of place for me. I can't explain it...Not a huge Holmes fan, but she was much more effective as Rachel.

I stated this is my review in that thread but am I the only one not crazy about Bale's Batman voice? At times it was hard to understand him and we had a really good audio presentation. I was able to catch most of it & I understand the need for separation from Bruce Wayne...but it feels artificial.

I know that must sound nit-picky in a film that's pretty dang good. But that's why each of us reacts to things a bit different. I believe it would be a little more effective if his voice sounded less like it was coming from a machine.

Eckhart was really, really good as Dent...

The biggest issue is the length of the film. There was one review that said it was about 15 minutes too long. On that I agree 100%. Right after

Rachel's death...and that I did not see coming...right after that it throws quite a bit at us and it felt a little long.

The group I was with all agreed that some cutting out might have made a little tighter film. Maybe we just took that spoiler above really by surprise and it took a minute to catch our breath.

Regardless...The Dark Knight is a really good movie and one that I will certainly see again.

Gary Oldman has always been a fave of mine and he remains, perhaps in an underrated way, one of the best things about The Dark Knight. Ledger will and deservedly so get most of the talk...but Oldman was just as compelling.

Not much sleep and I hope I made some sense! Posted Image

More later...

#50 of 833 OFFLINE   Patrick Sun

Patrick Sun

    Studio Mogul



  • 37,895 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 1999

Posted July 18 2008 - 01:27 AM

I liked Maggie G more as Rachel just for the simple fact that she comes across as an adult, not as someone a bit too young and light-weight, giving over-reaction faces over and over again as Katie Holmes did.

Is there any inkling for the Mike Angle (Anthony Michael Hall) character to show up in a villanous capacity for the next film?
"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
Patcave | 2006 Films | 2007 Films | Flickr | Comic-Con 2012 | Dragon*Con 2012

#51 of 833 OFFLINE   Cassy_w

Cassy_w

    Second Unit



  • 461 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 02 2003

Posted July 18 2008 - 02:05 AM

How many saw this in Imax and what did you think? How many of you saw this without a WATCHMAN trailer in front of it?
Death to PG-13! And now death to DVNR too!!

#52 of 833 OFFLINE   Chuck Mayer

Chuck Mayer

    Lead Actor



  • 7,996 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 06 2001
  • Real Name:Chuck Mayer
  • LocationNorthern Virginia

Posted July 18 2008 - 02:31 AM

1) IMAX had no trailers. None.

2) I don't want to judge the length based on a midnight show. I'd rather see it fully rested before I decide if it's REALLY too long. I did feel it was long, but couldn't find anything to cut.

3) Paul, my feelings about the Ledger's performance as the Joker have shifted somewhat. Remembering small little moments he had really impresses. He absolutely supports the cast, but his scenes are REALLY good. Looking forward to watching him again. I think his work is more subtle than you'd expect (not saying that it is actually subtle).

4) I liked Gyllenhall a lot. Sorry. Not all of her scenes were home runs. But a) I did find her very attractive (seriously, is Bruce Wayne going to be impressed by simply being a hottie after what he walks around with?). I liker her scene in the interrogation room a lot. It was sexy, and connected the character to the first film for me, so I took her for granted, I suppose. I agree there isn't much "there" there. I knew she was going to get it, but almost gasped when she did. More for what Dent was screaming, and how it must have made her feel. She must have known she'd be getting saved. To find out she's not moments before death must have been very hard (even as the Joker manipulated the situation).

5) I didn't mind the visors because they harkened to his comic appearance Posted Image And cell phones can be remotely activiated and used (not as sonar, but...). It's a major problem for some security groups/considerations right now.

6) I wasn't sure Dent was dead. I thought Two-Face was the big villain for 3. Written properly, he's the best Batman villain. I know they had their memorial and he had his fall, but I'm still not convinced. The hardest thing for me to accept was his appearance. It was fantastic, and nails the character, but after a movie and a half of a certain world, it was asking for some leeway from the audience. It was a bit fantastic (fantasy aspect). I like it quite a bit, but I wonder how the casual viewer will react.

7) Lastly, Alex Ross painted one of my favorite Batman images ever. An image of Bruce from the back changing into (or out of) his costume, showing numerous scars and bruises on his back. I appreciated the homage to that picture early in the film.
Hey buddy...did you just see a real bright light?

#53 of 833 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

Tim Glover

    Lead Actor



  • 7,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 12 1999
  • Real Name:Tim Glover

Posted July 18 2008 - 02:46 AM

Chuck,
Good point about not judging the length from a midnight showing...and one that we showed up 2 hours early to get "our seats". I debated on whether or not to even mention that in my first review but I do feel some of that could have been edited out a bit. But what to cut? Not sure because those events following R's___ were necessary.

Subsequent viewings will no doubt be the telling.

Also agree with you on Two Face. It was a bit of a stretch. I had thoughts of Terminator with that eye thingy....and kind of feel that for such a gritty film, something different for him might have worked better.

And Chuck, what's your take on Bale's Batman voice? Sometimes it was hard to understand having kind of a machine sounding tone?

Not a biggie though.

#54 of 833 OFFLINE   IanDP

IanDP

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 103 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 28 2006

Posted July 18 2008 - 02:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway

My only real nitpick is that Sonar Vision Batman went a bit too far. They did they're best to set it up, and the surveillance aspect of it I bought no problem, but when the eye-screens came down it seemed a bit too much. But again, this is a very minor nitpick.
As I was watching that scene I thought to myself, they have officially "nuked the fridge". Basically that was a little much for us to suspend our disbelief. But like you said, it was small and I can forgive. I loved the movie anyway.

From Urban Dictionary:
Nuke the Fridge:
"A colloquialism used to delineate the precise moment at which a cinematic franchise has crossed over from remote plausibility to self parodying absurdity"
Urban Dictionary: nuke the fridge

#55 of 833 OFFLINE   Shawn.F

Shawn.F

    Supporting Actor



  • 561 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 16 2005

Posted July 18 2008 - 02:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
I don't have a review, as that's not something I do well at all. I'll say this:

This was the best cinematic experience I've had.

That is, until you go to the IMAX screening. Trust me. Posted Image

I've seen this three times now, twice in IMAX on Wednesday night and last night. You'd think that many showings in that short of a time would burn me out on the film. It doesn't. The damn thing only keeps getting better.

Next stop (next week): DLP.

Oh and Nic...like that 'magic trick' I PM'd you about? Posted Image

#56 of 833 OFFLINE   Chad R

Chad R

    Screenwriter



  • 2,174 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 14 1999
  • Real Name:Chad Rouch

Posted July 18 2008 - 03:34 AM

I think the best way to quantify all of the Oscar talk for Ledger is to equate his performance to Johnny Depp's as Jack Sparrow. They are both over the top characters in big summer movies that critics typically hate. But, they transcend that by giving in to the character with creative line readings no other actor would have given. Since Depp was nominated for "Pirates of the Caribbean," Ledger does have a shot at a nomination.

And since we're not masking spoilers, I don't think you can automatically assume Harvey Dent is dead. I've seen the film twice now and since this was a big point of discussion between me and my wife after the Tuesday screening, we paid close attention to the entire scene this time. It's never mentioned between Gordon and the Bat that Dent died. The only mention of the word is when Gordon says "...die with his reputation."

On Tuesday, my wife was convinced he died, but I was convinced he lived. Now, she's on my side at least in that she feels they leave the possibility he could be alive. Sure, they have a funeral for Dent, but that could be a cover-up. If Gordon had allowed people to see what he had become, they would lose the hope that Dent had instilled in them, and he and the Bat would have lost Gotham's soul to the Joker. So, Harvey Dent is dead in the eyes of the city so that when Harvey "Two-Face" breaks out of Arkham (which is where Gordon probably stashed him) people will think it's a new person.

Also, I still contend that if Batman didn't kill the Joker, he wouldn't have killed Harvey. So, he knew the relatively short fall would just knock him out.

#57 of 833 OFFLINE   Chuck Mayer

Chuck Mayer

    Lead Actor



  • 7,996 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 06 2001
  • Real Name:Chuck Mayer
  • LocationNorthern Virginia

Posted July 18 2008 - 03:35 AM

Well, I liked the "nuke the fridge" scene in Indy IV. It had energy. And the sonar vision had creativity, so I really dug it. After Two-Face running around and some of the action, a little implausibility isn't the end of the world. AT least for me. We all have our boundaries.

I am a devotee of Kevin Conroy's voice (DCUA Batman). He gets both perfectly right. I agree it doesn't work as well for Bale (and the suit isn't so hot either), but since the motivation is so right and the direction so sound, I don't pay a lot of attention to it. If the character is right, I'm not going to bitch about the suit Posted Image

I do want to rave about the Joker, and not just Ledger. The writing on the character is a perfect amalgamation of previous incarnations (from Mad Love to the Killing Joke), brought into the PG-13 world. His scenes with Batman and Dent summarize his very effectively. He only lies when he is proving a point...other than that, he's completely honest. He wants to drag the world down with him. Being everything he says he is, he has NO fear. Nothing scares him, so he's the most frightening guy in the world. Furthermore, he is a control freak, manipulating every situation to achieve the results he wants. Which is to show everybody that he is "ahead of the curve". It's a brilliant take on probably the best villain in comic book history. Ledger gets it right in small ways over and over, never going gonzo, but always controlling the scene.

I was happy to note that scenes that seemed overwritten in trailers were much more integrated into the film. They fit where they were supposed to. To a lesser extent, I agree with Paul that Gordon's closing lines are a bit too purple prose...but the movie had more than earned that by this point. Besides...it had a great take on Batman. "He can take it."
Hey buddy...did you just see a real bright light?

#58 of 833 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

Nicholas Martin

    Screenwriter



  • 2,683 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 18 2003

Posted July 18 2008 - 03:44 AM

What I liked about Dent's appearance was that it didn't look like makeup. Because of the CGI enhancements, it looked as though flesh and skin were missing, and his deformity was not something layered on top of his own face, which made it more realistic and disturbing, because that half of his head is smaller - as it should be since so much is gone.

HOW he ended up that way was very surprising, and in my mind better than the origin story explanation. It was more believable, and unexpected because when Batman shows up and pulls Dent away, you're left thinking 'but it hasn't happened...what gives?'. Then....well you know.

I had absolutely no sense of the time, because everything was so interesting to see and hear (and I had a bad seat AND arrived an hour early, for a 12:04 AM show, because I figured that would be the best one to get) that it never felt 'long' at all. If anything I was upset it was over.

I found it interesting that in the only scene with Joker not wearing the clown makeup, they made sure to obscure it with quick cuts as much as possible. By the time he's in the hospital, despite all he had done, you came to understand him and what he was about, and it made a sick sense.

What was everyone's opinion of how exposed Batman was to the public and especially the police? Another interesting choice I enjoyed.

#59 of 833 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

Nicholas Martin

    Screenwriter



  • 2,683 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 18 2003

Posted July 18 2008 - 03:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn.F
That is, until you go to the IMAX screening. Trust me. Posted Image

I've seen this three times now, twice in IMAX on Wednesday night and last night. You'd think that many showings in that short of a time would burn me out on the film. It doesn't. The damn thing only keeps getting better.

Next stop (next week): DLP.

Oh and Nic...like that 'magic trick' I PM'd you about? Posted Image

I'll see it in IMAX first chance. It's in another city and I have to rely on public transportation, but if it's the last thing I do I'll see the IMAX experience.

That magic trick....I've never seen something so shocking and funny at once. I found everything Joker did funny and dreadful at the same time. Very strange feeling to have. Uzi's aren't enough? Okay....Bazooka time! The man's blowing a hospital to hell...why am I laughing so hard?

It's safe to say that people's concerns about this Joker being too serious and not a 'clown' were dead wrong. And that laugh! Now THAT was perfect!

#60 of 833 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

Tim Glover

    Lead Actor



  • 7,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 12 1999
  • Real Name:Tim Glover

Posted July 18 2008 - 03:55 AM

Obviously, Ledger's tragic death makes just about everything around The Dark Knight take on a surreal affect if you will but Ledger's performance is truly amazing on it's own right.

His role was written extremely well and Ledger delivers each line with such a presence that it makes us believe that he really believes in what he's doing. That's no small feat. And for a villain whose been portrayed in such a comical way in the past, Nolan's writing/directing and Ledger's portrayal of The Joker changes everything I thought of him before.

Frightening, funny, alarmning, and believable.

The more I think about the film the more I like it. Posted Image


Back to Movies (Theatrical)



Forum Nav Content I Follow