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Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?


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32 replies to this topic

#1 of 33 OFFLINE   Johannes S

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:00 AM

May I kindly ask, what entity has removed all user posts on the most interesting and highly frequented thread about the excessive use of digital manipulation, noise reduction and grain-removal on many recent Blu-ray presentations?

The democratic right of free expression of opinion in a proper discussion seems to have expired on this forum.

Obviously this move is proof enough that this open and decent discussion was too critical for the industry. I always thought this was a user controlled forum to discuss good and evil on the home video market.

Very disappointed. Thanks....

#2 of 33 OFFLINE   Andreas Wagner

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:28 AM

I have been wondering the same thing.


What happened here?


AW

#3 of 33 OFFLINE   Andreas Wagner

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:30 AM

Oh....

... and the thread by RAH about the recall of both "The Longest Day" and "Patton" is missing, too!

AW

#4 of 33 OFFLINE   Ken_McAlinden

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:30 AM

It appears that Robert Harris has requested that a number of posts and threads that he started addressing the topic be removed. I assume that he has identified some better way of effecting positive change through diplomatic advocacy. In the mean time, if you need to express something freely (within forum guidelines, naturally Posted Image), you can always go here:

http://www.hometheat....-much-ask.html

Regards,
Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

#5 of 33 OFFLINE   Robert Harris

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:33 AM

Johannes,

As the thread in question was an off-shoot of my original DNR thread, I requested that it be removed as the point has been made regarding the affected discs.

Mr. Epstein was kind enough to accede to my wishes.

This is not censorship.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence


#6 of 33 OFFLINE   Russell G

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Posted July 16 2008 - 04:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
The democratic right of free expression of opinion in a proper discussion seems to have expired on this forum.

Last I heard this was a private owned board with a strict charter of conduct... don't believe me? Start a thread about politics dealing with race and religious issues... Posted Image

If Mr Harris wanted the threads pulled, I'm glad they co-operated, just like I would be if they did it in my favor.

#7 of 33 OFFLINE   Johannes S

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Posted July 16 2008 - 05:00 AM

Thank you, Russell, for educating me. I really do appreciate it. Posted Image

My last two cents on this issue.

The industry seems to be in trouble. Lackluster sales of the highly-praised new high-definition "Blu-ray" format which should insure recovering software sales of a saturated and declining DVD market.

Blu-ray is not taking off, despite of evolving as the "winning format" over HD DVD. Warner is eager to try and push the format by announcing to lower their pricing structure in the fourth quarter.

Why?

-The economy, as an independent factor. In a receding economic environment with high gas prices and general high inflation, people just spent less on luxury goods they don't need for survival.

-The failure of all studios to educate the consumer about the revolutionary new capability of a 1080p resolution format. For the first time in home video history, Blu-ray and HD DVD offered a unique viewing experience by creating the illusion of projected film, with it's resolved fine grain structure intact along with highest resolution contained in the high-frequency information transported by an unfiltered 1080p stream.

What did the studios do instead?

They increasingly started to offer travesties of their original high quality 4k film scans on the Blu-ray format. Totally gone were the advantages of the 1080p format as described above. Low pass filtering, grain removal, edge enhancement and excessive DVNR robbed the transfers of all advantages the format has over the established DVD format.

Why did they do this?

Because most "self-appointed" reviewers complained about these advantages the 1080p format has to offer, namely representing the original film scan with all the limitations and advantages of the film medium: High resolution and film-inherent grain. (For me, film-grain is the most beautiful attribute, the "medium" "film" can offer.)

Most purists, cineasts and educated home video amateurs want to have a Blu-ray disc, transparent to the high quality 4k film scan, without tempering by means of excessive DVNR.

The studios declined and now the whole format is at stake.

RAH did stir up a hornet's nest. Another threat for a disconcerted industry. But he was totally right.

The only way to make Blu-ray flourish is to OFFER DECENT TRANSFERS TRANSPARENT TO THE MASTER, WITHOUT DVNR.

I will be silent now. Posted Image

#8 of 33 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted July 16 2008 - 05:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
It appears that Robert Harris has requested that a number of posts and threads that he started addressing the topic be removed. I assume that he has identified some better way of effecting positive change through diplomatic advocacy.

I understand the decision that was made, and I understand that 'free speech' as it is typically interpreted doesn't apply on a privately owned forum. I am appreciative however that Johannes S brought this to my attention via this thread so that I could be made aware that there was a decision made.

However, the part in bold above, as you correctly stated, is an assumption; and I would rest easier about the DVNR and grain-filtering issues if I heard that directly from Mr. Harris. Otherwise, it is too easy for people to concoct conspiracy theories or feel we are 'losing this fight', which the pessimist in me believes to be true anyway.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#9 of 33 OFFLINE   Jesse Blacklow

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Posted July 16 2008 - 05:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
The industry seems to be in trouble. Lackluster sales of the highly-praised new high-definition "Blu-ray" format which should insure recovering software sales of a saturated and declining DVD market.

Blu-ray is not taking off, despite of evolving as the "winning format" over HD DVD. Warner is eager to try and push the format by announcing to lower their pricing structure in the fourth quarter.
Ugh. Not only is this entire statement not true (just read the multiple articles from the last two weeks that point out that both DVD and Blu-ray did better than expected), but it's another unnecessary format war post.
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Um...easy, both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me."
--Michael Scott, The Office

"When I get sad I just stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story."
--Barney Stinson, How I Met Your Mother

#10 of 33 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted July 16 2008 - 06:31 AM

I'd like to thank those of you that reminded our readers that
this is a private forum.

At the request of Mr. Harris, we removed two threads. You
are going to have to trust that there was a legitimate reason
behind the decision.

(Thank you Ken McAlinden for your post above)

Furthermore, to show that we aren't attempting to censor or
stifle discussion on this forum, RAH's "A few words about Patton"
still stands proudly within this area, totally untouched, proving that
we aren't shoving any of your concerns under the carpet.

I would hope in the future some would give us the benefit of doubt
of making wise decisions rather than accusing us of trying to
prevent our members from openly discussing their concerns.

Finally, let me say that the studios got our point. Trust me, they
are well aware of our concerns. You have no idea how many of
the Internet leaders within this community have gone to bat for our
readers on these BD issues. To continue attacking the studios at
this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests. Let's
wait and see what happens with future BD transfers (after current
ones that could be "DNR" affected are out of the pipeline).

 

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

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#11 of 33 OFFLINE   Cassy_w

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Posted July 16 2008 - 06:57 AM

Anything IN the pipeline should be pulled that is DVNR affected. Not doing so will only result in more hostility towards the studios.

I, for one, am terrified what DARK CITY will look like, since New Line is abusive with noise reduction.
Death to PG-13! And now death to DVNR too!!

#12 of 33 OFFLINE   Dave H

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Posted July 16 2008 - 07:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Ugh. Not only is this entire statement not true (just read the multiple articles from the last two weeks that point out that both DVD and Blu-ray did better than expected), but it's another unnecessary format war post.

Quite true.

I've had enough of the Blu-ray doomsday scenario. I'm looking at all of those announced titles I'm going to be buying.

#13 of 33 OFFLINE   Jari K

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Posted July 16 2008 - 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
I've had enough of the Blu-ray doomsday scenario.

Amen.

#14 of 33 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted July 16 2008 - 08:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
Finally, let me say that the studios got our point. Trust me, they are well aware of our concerns. You have no idea how many of the Internet leaders within this community have gone to bat for our readers on these BD issues. To continue attacking the studios at this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests. Let's wait and see what happens with future BD transfers (after current ones that could be "DNR" affected are out of the pipeline).

Thanks for the reassurance, Ron.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#15 of 33 OFFLINE   Johannes S

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Posted July 16 2008 - 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
To continue attacking the studios at
this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy_w
.... Not doing so will only result in more hostility towards the studios......



Letting the studio executives know what educated consumers really want, is an act of friendship and patronage, rather than hostility. I call this "constructive criticism" not "attacking" or "insulting".

#16 of 33 ONLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted July 16 2008 - 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
Letting the studio executives know what educated consumers really want, is an act of friendship and patronage, rather than hostility. I call this "constructive criticism" not "attacking" or "insulting".
You can call it anything you want, but if it's perceived otherwise then your words become counterproductive if your true message is being tune out by those you're trying to impress upon about the significance of their actions. Now, if you don't care about changing what's happening with these HD releases and just want to make sure you're issuing "constructive criticism" by being passionate then go ahead and knock yourself out, but at the end of the day, what has that accomplished that's worthwhile and beneficial to us all?

Crawdaddy

 

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#17 of 33 OFFLINE   Felix Martinez

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Posted July 16 2008 - 12:53 PM

RAH's last wonderful "Yellow Layer" article on DNR over at The Bits has also been pulled Posted Image

Wish I could have saved this stuff...

#18 of 33 OFFLINE   Mark Oates

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Posted July 16 2008 - 01:00 PM

I wish the forumites on our site had half the passion of the gang on these forums. Of course, when passions are running high, things can come across as hostility, especially when dealing with industry thin-skins. I deal a lot with PR companies, and they're easy to upset. A kind word achieves a whole order of magnitude more than a harsh one. You don't want to go overboard and sound sycophantic, but praise where it's due rather than criticism for what may be to them a niggling detail will probably have better results.

At the moment, the industry is listening to people it trusts - reviewers - rather than consumers. The reviewers need to be convinced about what makes a high-definition picture look right. We, and I'm not counting myself as a reviewer in this case, know what a movie should look like. The industry knows what a movie should look like. The problem is that the industry is listening to a group of people who patently don't.
J Mark Oates
Do Not Be Afraid. That sound is simply my mind boggling.

 


#19 of 33 OFFLINE   Ed St. Clair

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:09 PM

This forum deserves better.
Proof is in this very thread,
Hope the thread title can be changed & the OP's accusations corrected.
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#20 of 33 OFFLINE   Michael Reuben

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Posted July 16 2008 - 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Hope the thread title can be changed
That would probably just give the OP more ammunition. Posted Image

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