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Star Trek The Next Generation appreciation thread


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#41 of 235 OFFLINE   Dave Scarpa

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Posted July 01 2008 - 03:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
Dave,

I like those titles you have for Data. I might also add that I like the 'I'm going to take over the ship and become scarier than hell Data.' This is when he is either taken over by some entity, acting the part of Lore (in which case he isn't really Data, of course), or has gone off on his own (knowingly) without too much regard for protocol, such as when he was in charge of the Sutherland, was attempting to contact Sarjenka, or was creating Lal. I wouldn't want to see this kind of Data all of the time, but in small doses, I like it. Posted Image

I actually grew tired of "Possessed Data" Because Spiner could only play it like Lore everytime, so it just became awful Dull. The Worst example of "{PossesedData}" was the 7th Season Stinker MASKS. I could barely sit thru that one the first time, I usually skip it by choice.
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#42 of 235 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted July 01 2008 - 04:03 AM

Interesting, you guys have brought up episodes that I wasn't as taken with.

The High Ground and The Hunted were good TOS type stories and they had endings that made you think about the situations. I liked how Beverly said to the police in The High Ground that they didn't have to kill him.

I skipped The Most Toys in this viewing because I didn't like it when it first aired. Maybe I'll give it another chance. I do recall that last shot, did he shoot or not.

Creating Lal was an interesting episode and I liked how Picard at first wasn't happy that he went and did it, but later embraced the project and tried to help Data to protect Lal from the evil Starfleet robotics/Maddox type Admiral.

Similarly, when Data took it onto himself to answer Sarjenka's messages was an equally good, yet totally child-like naive move that Picard has to later deal with as they are neck deep in Prime Directive violation issues! I think that was what I liked about those Data shows, he was like a child.

#43 of 235 OFFLINE   Sam Favate

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Posted July 01 2008 - 04:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
I might also add that I like the 'I'm going to take over the ship and become scarier than hell Data.' This is when he is either taken over by some entity, acting the part of Lore (in which case he isn't really Data, of course), or has gone off on his own (knowingly) without too much regard for protocol, such as when he was in charge of the Sutherland, was attempting to contact Sarjenka, or was creating Lal. I wouldn't want to see this kind of Data all of the time, but in small doses, I like it. Posted Image

Unfortunately, all we saw in the TNG films was this Data, or some variation on him. In every film, he was either possessed or otherwise out of control. Sadly, the film TNG never got the character right - nor much of the series.

Quote:
Creating Lal was an interesting episode and I liked how Picard at first wasn't happy that he went and did it, but later embraced the project and tried to help Data to protect Lal from the evil Starfleet robotics/Maddox type Admiral.

Offspring was an outstanding episode; one of the best of any series. Not only is there a great Data story in there, a wonderful guest star in Hallie Todd, but Picard has his own arc in it that's believable and powerful. And let's not forget the comedy - that scene with Riker in the bar is an all-time high.

#44 of 235 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted July 01 2008 - 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Favate
Unfortunately, all we saw in the TNG films was this Data, or some variation on him. In every film, he was either possessed or otherwise out of control. Sadly, the film TNG never got the character right - nor much of the series.
Sam,

Yeah, I know. There were some things I did like about Data in the films, but swearing was not one of them. Posted Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Favate
Offspring was an outstanding episode; one of the best of any series. Not only is there a great Data story in there, a wonderful guest star in Hallie Todd, but Picard has his own arc in it that's believable and powerful. And let's not forget the comedy - that scene with Riker in the bar is an all-time high.
Agreed. It was an outstanding episode. It made me teary-eyed the first time I saw it. Incidentally, I have always been fond of the name 'Lal' in this episode, since it was also the name of one of the two Vians we see in The Empath (albeit not canonical). The self-destruction of Lal was so very well done, so poignant, and (for us through Data) extremely sad.

#45 of 235 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted July 02 2008 - 10:44 AM

I had an opportunity to revisit The Most Toys and In Theory. Two shows I skipped in my recent trip down TNG.

I never liked these two shows because I didn't like the basic premise. But on second viewing, they grew on me. The idea for how Data would react if he was held against his will was interesting. Fajo used logic against Data by arguing causing harm to others was not part of his programing and he could not kill. But he reasoned that he could not let it go on any longer and concluded killing Fajo was the only way out. That was good. But I found Fajo annoying and that was what made me dislike the episode. I liked Saul Rubinek much better in his muti guest role on Frasier! But in reading up on this episode, apparently an actor was chosen to play Fajo, but tried to kill himself after 2 days of filming, so Saul was hired at the last minute to take over. Given that, he did a terrific job of creating a very unlikable character.

In Theory was also more interesting the second time around. I liked how the script examined the idea of a machine trying to program itself for romantic love and utterly failling. Data could only use examples he found as a model, yet he couldn't make the leap and reinterprete the examples and make his own versions of how to act or love. Interesting how director Patrick Stewart used the last shot to express a sad mood, yet Data isn't sad. But we are for him.

#46 of 235 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted July 02 2008 - 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
The idea for how Data would react if he was held against his will was interesting. Fajo used logic against Data by arguing causing harm to others was not part of his programing and he could not kill.
Nelson,

I did like how Data was able to foil Fatjo (refusing to speak to Fatjo's friend) even though he (Data) was still a prisoner of his. That was wonderful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
But he reasoned that he could not let it go on any longer and concluded killing Fajo was the only way out.
This reminds me of an instance in TOS. I'm guessing you will know the one. The circumstances are not identical, but I believe the logic used and the solutions reached are the same.

We watched The Game last night. That episode was more chilling than I remembered it to be. One of the most interesting things to me was not only was the game addictive, but if you chose not to play it, those whom had played it forced you to play it! BTW, was it ever explained who the woman on Risa was? Was she also a Ktarian (or Kitarian)?

#47 of 235 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted July 02 2008 - 03:15 PM

Well, I was thinking of Galileo Seven where Spock concluded the only logical thing left to do was ignite the fuel to create the distress signal.

I'll be getting to the Game shortly, I'll let you know, but that girl who gave Riker the game was the same baddie who shows up at the end.

I just finished watching Redemption Part 1 and 2. That was a great one, lots of good stuff involving Klingon politics and the Romulans getting involved to alter the balance of power. And what a run Gowron has and how it ends on DS9.

I always liked how they wove in Sela's story. How whacked out is that for Picard to get his head around! I guess it's true, Since Yesterday's Enterprise, the whole timeline is now suspect. So Kirk may still be alive in the original timeline, or was Tasha aways destined to go back to the battle and survive to mother Sela. So was the Enterprise D always suppose to encounter the vortex that starts this whole cycle?

#48 of 235 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted July 02 2008 - 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
Well, I was thinking of Galileo Seven where Spock concluded the only logical thing left to do was ignite the fuel to create the distress signal.
Nelson,

Yep, that's the one. Posted Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
I'll be getting to the Game shortly, I'll let you know, but that girl who gave Riker the game was the same baddie who shows up at the end.
Okay, thanks. The make-up fooled me on that one.

More later. Posted Image

#49 of 235 OFFLINE   RickER

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Posted July 02 2008 - 04:54 PM

I just want you guys to know...i am reading this! I have been working a long stretch, so while i have been reading, its been to late to post anything coherent. You guys type some really nice essays i might add. I need to watch some of these episodes. Its been so long, i cant remember some of them! I dont have TNG entirely in my memory like i do TOS. Course i have watched TOS episodes a few more times than TNG. Posted Image

#50 of 235 OFFLINE   Ed Moroughan

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Posted July 03 2008 - 01:45 AM

Very good thread! Posted Image Earlier someone mentioned Conspiracy and the aliens...if I recall right in the commentary by the Okudas on First Contact, those aliens were supposed to be THE bad guys for TNG, but it flopped and was merged into the Borg in Q Who. Anyone else? I always thought Data did fire and then lied in The Most Toys, becoming more human, no? Best Data moment is Q's gift of a laugh in Deja Q. Hysterical! As is the episode as a whole.

I always enjoy the follow up to The Best of Both Worlds, Family. Although, Robert seems to be hurting JL at the end and not helping him even though he is trying to. This past Monday they had a personal fave of mine on, The Drumhead. When the Admiral asks JL so nastily "Captain, are you completely recovered from you experience with The Borg?" Repulsive! Anyone else wonder how Roddenberry allowed that to happen in his "perfect" future?

#51 of 235 OFFLINE   Dave Scarpa

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Posted July 03 2008 - 02:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Moroughan
Very good thread! Posted Image Earlier someone mentioned Conspiracy and the aliens...if I recall right in the commentary by the Okudas on First Contact, those aliens were supposed to be THE bad guys for TNG, but it flopped and was merged into the Borg in Q Who. Anyone else? I always thought Data did fire and then lied in The Most Toys, becoming more human, no? Best Data moment is Q's gift of a laugh in Deja Q. Hysterical! As is the episode as a whole.

I always enjoy the follow up to The Best of Both Worlds, Family. Although, Robert seems to be hurting JL at the end and not helping him even though he is trying to. This past Monday they had a personal fave of mine on, The Drumhead. When the Admiral asks JL so nastily "Captain, are you completely recovered from you experience with The Borg?" Repulsive! Anyone else wonder how Roddenberry allowed that to happen in his "perfect" future?

I think Roddenberry would've approved as alot of story's in the original were moral plays. The Drumhead is one Trek Episode that has increased in relevence as time moved on, it's very topical today.
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#52 of 235 OFFLINE   Zack Gibbs

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Posted July 03 2008 - 04:37 AM

About "The Best of Both Worlds part 1" ;

I always like to think of the influence this episode had on modern television. Along with "Who Shot J.R.?," these are the two biggest reasons so many shows today end their seasons on a cliffhanger. (some people would choose to use the word "credit," some the word "blame." Posted Image )

BOBW Certainly set the pattern for every Trek finale there after. People also rarely remember that a big motivation for it was that Patrick Stewart's contract was up and when BOBW 1 aired it was not known if he would be returning to the show. It's hard to imagine where the show would have gone without him, it being so different. But I do always wonder what BOBW part 2 would have been had his character not returned. I'm sure they probably worked on both possibilities when writing the episodes so there's probably a story out there somewhere.
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#53 of 235 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted July 03 2008 - 05:10 AM

Zack, your story that Patrick Stewart's uncertain return for the fourth season was a surprise to me. I looked it up at Memory Alpha's website. It says he wasn't happy that Picard wasn't doing more and was part of his contract negotiations, thus he sure got that in the fourth season including directing!

#54 of 235 OFFLINE   RickER

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Posted July 03 2008 - 08:08 AM

I had heard about Patrick Stewart MAYBE not coming back for the 4th season. I dont think it was a strong possiblity, but it existed. As i understand it Riker would have been Capt, and his 1st officer would have been whats her name from part one of the episode. Posted Image

#55 of 235 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted July 03 2008 - 08:17 AM

You mean Shelby. She would have been good there as Number One. Though I'm glad Stewart stayed on.

#56 of 235 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted July 03 2008 - 08:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
People also rarely remember that a big motivation for it was that Patrick Stewart's contract was up and when BOBW 1 aired it was not known if he would be returning to the show. It's hard to imagine where the show would have gone without him, it being so different. But I do always wonder what BOBW part 2 would have been had his character not returned. I'm sure they probably worked on both possibilities when writing the episodes so there's probably a story out there somewhere.
I was going to add that Picard didn't return to the show, as he was ... assimilated. Posted Image

Seriously, those are good points. Speaking of that second part, I don't think I've read on too many Boards where anyone preferred pt. 2 over pt. 1. I think pt. 1 was a masterpiece (one of the very few perfect 10s in Trek history). I recall waiting for a long time for pt. 2 to air, and the speculation on how they were going to resolve this Borg conflict was a joy to read at the time. Several people offered so many possibilities. I think pt. 2 was strong, but not anywhere near as strong as pt. 1.

Yep, Shelby is her name (Elizabeth Dennehy). However, I don't believe she would have been Riker's number one. Why? Because every Trek fan would have fed her to the Borg personally. Posted Image Not really. She IMO redeemed herself very admirably in the second part of The Best of Both Worlds. Posted Image BTW, I recall reading somewhere that the actress (Dennehy) wanted her name to appear in the opening credits (not as a guest star, but along with Stewart, Frakes, Sirtis, etc.).

#57 of 235 OFFLINE   Ed Moroughan

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Posted July 03 2008 - 01:08 PM

Does anyone like Tapestry? Another fave of mine. If you do tell me your opinion of this: What would Picard have been like if he hadn't been stabbed in the heart and had remained "wild?" As a third outcome separate from the two in the episode. I think he'd have been court-martialed early on. Thoughts?

#58 of 235 OFFLINE   Kevin Hewell

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Posted July 03 2008 - 06:41 PM

Tapestry is probably the best of the "Q" eps.

Patrick Stewart really sells it.

#59 of 235 OFFLINE   Sam Favate

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Posted July 05 2008 - 03:25 AM

Tapestry is one of the very best TNG had to offer. One of Stewart's best moments on the show, and DeLancie is probably at his best as Q.

As for the BOBW, I remember hearing a radio interview with Stewart in the summer of 1990 in which he said he would certainly be back. I think a lot of the speculation he wouldn't was hype to raise the stakes and the anticipation level for the 4th season premiere. Can you imagine if he didn't return to the show? What a disappointment the second half would have been.

#60 of 235 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted July 05 2008 - 07:17 AM

We watched Conundrum last night. It remains one of my favorites. In fact, that entire disc is quite good (Ethics, Power Play, etc.).

I loved it when they realized who they were, and Worf had to 'step down,' so to speak. Posted Image My only gripe (and it's a small one) is I believe they made McDuff way too conspicuous. I would have loved, for example, not to have had him appear on the Bridge right after the probe. It would have been great (IMO) to have him walk on the Bridge sometime after that (maybe even a minute or two later).

There were some funny moments in the episode that I never tire of, such as Data as a bartender, or the pseudo-jealous attitude of Ro toward Troi, or Worf when he tells Riker to 'proceed.' Posted Image


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