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Copyright Cops?


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#41 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
What give the government the right to search my ipod with out a warrant or any reason except a random chance? Guilty until proven innocent. Posted Image

Why should ISPs provide information about their customers, both law abiding and others, out a warrant? Guilty until proven innocent. Posted Image

A governing body that operates outside the WTO or UN? Who will oversee it? The entertainment industry ? Posted Image

Believe me I am for protecting the copyrights, but not at the expense of basic personal freedoms like privacy.

Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop.

Brian, re-read the post you are replying to. I revised it before your reply showed up.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#42 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
Granted.

No I didn't. You misread Johnny Angell's posting. I'll reproduce it for you here, so you realize your error.


I'm sure you're now sorry about your interrogative. Apology accepted.

You most certainly did say to him, after the quote you provided me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
Yes, current US law affords you that right.

Apology not given.

You later said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
As well he should. I believe perfect copies of digital video should have restrictions. The law, including the courts, agree with me, not you, on this point. You will undoubtedly complain that you're right and we're wrong; I'm not surprised given that you want to make copies of DVDs.

So you both backtracked on your prior statement and claimed I said something I didn't.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#43 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:43 AM

And just out of curiosity, in general, where do used books, CDs, and DVDs fall in this whole copyright debate? The producers of the media don't get any money from their resale by these methods.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#44 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:44 AM

I can't believe you didn't realize your mistake, Matthew. You really should read the messages you reply to more closely. The distinction you've missed is that Johnny Angell's question had to do with the law permitting ripping CDs to MP3s, while your assertions were regarding the law prohibiting copying DVDs.

I'm sorry; this oversight on your part must be embarrassing. I truly didn't intend to prompt that embarrassment.

#45 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
And just out of curiosity, in general, where do used books, CDs, and DVDs fall in this whole copyright debate? The producers of the media don't get any money from their resale by these methods.
Resale of all three is legal, unless explicitly prohibited by the license you were granted as part of your original purchase agreement (which is very rare). The only requirement is that in reselling copyrighted content, you must discard all copies you may have, both legal (such as MP3s ripped from CDs) and illegal (copied DVDs).

#46 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
I can't believe you didn't realize your mistake, Matthew. You really should read the messages you reply to more closely. The distinction you've missed is that Johnny Angell's question had to do with the law permitting ripping CDs to MP3s, while your assertions were regarding the law prohibiting copying DVDs.

I'm sorry; this oversight on your part must be embarrassing. I truly didn't intend to prompt that embarrassment.

That's fine. Thanks for pointing that out. I re-read it accordingly and I see the distinction.

I just worry whether those given power to enforce the laws if this copyright enforcement body comes to power makes that distinctions.

But when I mentioned DVDs, which one could theoretically rip onto a video iPod, I implied CDs too. But a DVD is hardly a "perfect" digital copy of a film. A 35mm negative holds far more info than a Blu-Ray disc, let alone a DVD.

What about CDs? Should they be subject to the same digital copy protection as DVDs? Sony tried it with that rootkit thing, and it was a disaster.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#47 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I just worry whether those given power to enforce the laws if this copyright enforcement body comes to power makes that distinctions.
They absolutely do. It is generally understood, in this realm, that the RIAA lost a war, ostensibly by underestimating the power of rampant, unchecked transgression to undercut their business model; it is a war that the MPAA does not intend to lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
But when I mentioned DVDs, which one could theoretically rip onto a video iPod
Controlled via application of the CCI flag. Copy protection, thereby intact, as per the wishes of the copyright owner, as it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I implied CDs too.
That's not possible, because an implication cannot cross between CDs and DVDs, since the laws and the the technologies are different. Your desire to have them follow the same rules is noted, but irrelevant. How would you feel if the laws and technologies were the same, and they were uniformly in favor of copy protection, i.e., providing for CCI flags and all equipment respecting the flags, which precluded copying if the content owner wanted to preclude copying? It is a rhetorical question since neither side gets "their way" -- for audio, the wishes of copy-ers prevail; for video, content owners prevail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
But a DVD is hardly a "perfect" digital copy of a film.
A copied DVD is a perfect copy of the original DVD. There is not necessarily any degradation when copying digital data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
What about CDs? Should they be subject to the same digital copy protection as DVDs?
Perhaps they should have been, but they weren't. And the music recording companies get shafted as a result.

#48 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:23 PM

I see what you mean by a perfect digital copy of the disc itself. Yes, that is true. Of course, there are reasons why one would want to back up a disc for personal use. Especially if it's a DVD that children will be watching a lot.

Furthermore, the fact that this body will be able to search privately-owned ISPs without a warrant bothers me a great deal.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#49 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I see what you mean by a perfect digital copy of the disc itself. Yes, that is true. Of course, there are reasons why one would want to back up a disc for personal use. Especially if it's a DVD that children will be watching a lot.
There is no question that buyers would want to make backups. What buyers "want" not the issue though. A sale is an offer and an acceptance. The seller makes the offer, and then the buyer determines whether they want to accept the offer or decline it. When the seller doesn't intend to grant license to make backups, and the law doesn't provide it, it isn't allowed. That's the way it should be... and perhaps should have been for all digital media, but it happens not to apply, specifically, to computer software, as a matter of law.

There is no intent, on the part of those offering DVDs for sale, to grant an unending license. Rather, for DVDs, the license is granted, effectively, for the life of the medium. Even without the complication of children, DVDs don't necessarily last forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Furthermore, the fact that this body will be able to search privately-owned ISPs without a warrant bothers me a great deal.
In the United States, there would almost surely be a requirement for probably cause. That's an American principle that is only abridged in the case of national security -- NOT for commercial reasons.

#50 of 129 OFFLINE   Bryan^H

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:46 PM

Scare tactics. It will never happen. Utter nonsense.

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#51 of 129 OFFLINE   Bryan^H

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K

There is no intent, on the part of those offering DVDs for sale, to grant an unending license. Rather, for DVDs, the license is granted, effectively, for the life of the medium. Even without the complication of children, DVDs don't necessarily last forever.

If cared for properly, and stored in the right climate(not overly hot, and humid) a dvd has a lifespan of 30-120 years. That is considered a lifetime to most people.

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#52 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:51 PM

Yes, indeed, but for some people the 30 years (or less with wear) is not a lifetime. That's the point.

#53 of 129 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
There is no intent, on the part of those offering DVDs for sale, to grant an unending license. Rather, for DVDs, the license is granted, effectively, for the life of the medium. Even without the complication of children, DVDs don't necessarily last forever.

The estimated life of a DVD is 100 years, far longer than its original owner will likely last. But what if the DVD is stolen or lost or destroyed by some unforeseen catastrophe outside of any human control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
Scare tactics. It will never happen. Utter nonsense.

Never say never. Before yesterday I would not have believed it.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#54 of 129 OFFLINE   Bryan^H

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:57 PM

Well, if it did happen I think thats when people start fighting back. No one confiscates my computer, and lives:=

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#55 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 12:57 PM

Again, the point is the limit, not the fact that it will rarely become applicable. Remember the context presented, with children messing with the DVD and degrading it to the extent that folks would want to make backup copies, which is illegal.

#56 of 129 OFFLINE   Todd H

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Posted June 01 2008 - 01:05 PM

Nothing like watching companies desperately cling to outdated business models. We see how well that worked for the music industry. Of course that is perfectly within their rights, just as it is within my rights to stop buying their product. If you treat paying customers as criminals, then be prepared for the backlash.

I still haven't seen anyone answer the question of how they can tell what's pirated and what is not. Instead of hassling iPod owners, how about spending this time and effort going after people that actually sell bootleg CD's and DVD's in flea markets, street corners, etc.?

Brian^K, what projects have you worked on so that I can make sure I don't purchase them? I don't agree with your viewpoint so, as a consumer, I've decided not to support your work.

#57 of 129 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted June 01 2008 - 01:10 PM

The music industry's demise is that they didn't take the threat seriously enough, soon enough. They lost their business model through neglect.

#58 of 129 OFFLINE   Todd H

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Posted June 01 2008 - 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
The music industry's demise is that they didn't take the threat seriously enough, soon enough. They lost their business model through neglect.

Uh huh. Tell yourself that all you want. Their business model died because they didn't adapt to the new digital distribution model. When they finally figured out that it was too late they used hordes of lawyers and buying legislation to try and stop the bleeding. End of story.

And you didn't answer my other questions:

1. How will they be able to tell what's pirated and what's not?
2. What projects have you worked on? I'm serious about not supporting your work.

#59 of 129 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted June 01 2008 - 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
I can't believe you didn't realize ...
That tone was totally uncalled for. Will you please return to civil debate a.s.a.p.

Furthermore: multiple sequential posts by one and the same poster are frowned upon in this forum. Especially if they hardly make sense because the reader has to find out for her/himself what the reply was to.
Please group your replies together in one post. If necessary you can use the edit function if the previous post is one of yours.

Thanks for understanding.

#60 of 129 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted June 01 2008 - 01:44 PM

If the music industry's model is dead then who is publishing all of these CDs and downloadable music tracks. Last time I paid I attention I hadn't heard of any music publishing and recording companies filing for bankruptcy. I think the "death" of the music industry is just RIAA propaganda. There haven't been too many entertainment conglomerates rushing to get out of the recording business, so saying their business model is dead is an exaggeration.
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