Copyright Cops? (1 Viewer)

MatthewA · May 31, 2008

According to this article, there is an international effort to make it so governments can legally invade your iPods and destroy them if they find pirated music. How they are going to prove the files are copyrighted is another matter:
Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I always believed the greatest threat to our liberties came from the mass media and its thugs.
These people must be stopped. I do not condone piracy, but I believe such matters should be civil matters, not criminal ones. This is just plain evil and possibly unconstitutional.

Dennis Nicholls · May 31, 2008

Newspaper reports indicate that the proposed agreement would empower security officials at airports and other international borders to conduct random searches of laptops, MP3 players, and cellular phones for illegally downloaded or "ripped" music and movies. Travelers with infringing content would be subject to a fine and may have their devices confiscated or destroyed.

Warrantless searches at international borders have been held to be constitutional.
A typical remedy for copyright or trademark infringement is the destruction of the infringeing item.
What exactly is new about your complaint?

Click to expand...

TravisR · May 31, 2008

MatthewA said:
According to this article, there is an international effort to make it so governments can legally invade your iPods and destroy them if they find pirated music.

I certainly don't know the laws of other countries or their political systems but I can not imagine that any country's law makers would create laws that would piss off the people that they're trying to get to keep voting for them. It would be useless to even try to enact a law like that because there would be a huge outcry against it.

MatthewA · May 31, 2008

Dennis Nicholls said:
Oh dear. Check out Art. I sec. 8 of the Constitution, which recites in pertinent part "The Congress shall have Power....To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writing and Discoveries..."
I'm sorry but the copyright laws are specifically and expressly included in the US Constitution as proper subject matter for the federal government to enact.
Your link includes the following "speculation":
Warrantless searches at international borders have been held to be constitutional.
A typical remedy for copyright or trademark infringement is the destruction of the infringeing item.
What exactly is new about your complaint?

Unreasonable searches and seizures, expressly prohibited by the Fourth Amendment constitution. I reiterate: how are they going to prove the source of music on an iPod, as to whether or not it was taken from a CD or a legally purchased iTunes file? What recourse does one have if the supposedly infringing material was destroyed in error?
No one is challenging the rights of intellectual property owners, but the callous disregard of the physical property rights of others.
Racial discrimination was also once held to be constitutional, by a ruling that was overturned (Plessy v. Ferguson, overturned by Brown v. Board of Education). The Supreme Court isn't always right. Frankly, with their appalling decision in Kelo v. City of New London I have little faith in their belief to uphold the rights of individuals, including property.
These specific concerns only apply to the United States, and I don't know what protections, if any, individuals have against this. I am simply concerned that a Pandora's Box is about to be opened. The 1974 incident involving Roddy MacDowall and the FBI concerning film prints he acquired by legal means was the tip of the iceberg.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

MatthewA · May 31, 2008

TravisR said:
I certainly don't know the laws of other countries or their political systems but I can not imagine that any country's law makers would create laws that would piss off the people that they're trying to get to keep voting for them. It would be useless to even try to enact a law like that because there would be a huge outcry against it.

Because the Hollywood studios and record companies have a great deal of clout in the House and the Senate, and in both parties. The late, non-lamented Jack Valenti worked for LBJ. We all know that the music industry is a propped-up corpse; its business model, not updated since the days of piano rolls, being propped up by its lawyers.
Politicians blabber about sex and violence in movies but roll over and play dead for them when it comes to balance between the rights of intellectual property owners and the physical property rights of consumers.
It is because of people like this that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

TravisR · May 31, 2008

MatthewA said:
Because the Hollywood studios and record companies have a great deal of clout in the House and the Senate, and in both parties.
Politicians blabber about sex and violence in movies but roll over and play dead for them when it comes to balance between the rights of intellectual property owners and the physical property rights of consumers.

I'm sure the entertainment industry does have a lot of clout but they don't have the clout that will make a politician vote for a law that will drive his constituency berserk by allowing the government to destroy their property.

BrianW · May 31, 2008

TravisR said:
I'm sure the entertainment industry does have a lot of clout but they don't have the clout that will make a politician vote for a law that will drive his constituency berserk by allowing the government to destroy their property.

Wanna bet?

Brian^K · Jun 1, 2008

As someone who creates copyrighted materials, I think our government isn't doing enough to secure our copyrights.
Let 'em search, and let 'em sanction the craven violators.
(And Orrin Hatch is a bozo.)

andrew markworthy · Jun 1, 2008

As someone who creates copyrighted materials, I think our government isn't doing enough to secure our copyrights.

I write textbooks, and modesty aside, one of them is pretty successful. My publisher reckons that I probably lose about two thirds of my rightful royalties through illegal photocopying. I can't claim this keeps me awake at night because it isn't my main source of income, and as I see little difference between copying and a friend lending you the original article, it isn't something I think is worth getting into a froth about. [No doubt record companies would like to stop us lending things to each other if they could find a way to do it].

What does get me annoyed, though, is record companies getting all pious about this issue. Yes, copying is theft, but price gouging and market manipulation aren't exactly non-crimes either. And as for all this BS about 'it's not about filthy rich stars getting even more wealth, we need this money to bring on new acts' - yeh, right.

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TravisR · Jun 1, 2008

BrianW said:
Wanna bet?

There's always an exception to a rule but do you really think that that will get passed? No because (once again) no one will risk pissing off their constituency by voting for that.

Brian^K · Jun 1, 2008

Creating copyrighted materials is the main source of income for many people. As such, it is something worth getting "into a froth about" (in your words).

Copying is theft. Charging what the market will bear for leisure purchases is not price gouging. It's called capitalism. There is no manipulation going on. There is no crime going on. Those are accusations without merit. What the record companies are doing is a "non-crime" (in your words). You're totally off-base with your assertions; what's worse, your statements can be construed by the unscrupulous as a rationalization for their transgressive and therefore morally objectionable behavior.

andrew markworthy · Jun 1, 2008

Creating copyrighted materials is the main source of income for many people. As such, it is something worth getting "into a froth about" (in your words).

Yes, and as I was at pains to point out, it isn't in my case and hence why I wasn't bothered. I wasn't saying that was the attitude others should take. Yeesh, the egocentrism level of some people ...
Brian, a question - if you could, would you stop people borrowing things from each other if they were copyrighted?

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BrianW · Jun 1, 2008

There's always an exception to a rule but do you really think that that will get passed?

Ah, but now you've changed the terms. You're talking about passage now, whereas before you were talking about a single vote. If you claim that there wouldn't be a single vote, and I show you someone eager to vote for such a thing, how do you entitle yourself to dismiss it as merely an "exception to a rule"?

Click to expand...

Brian^K · Jun 1, 2008

andrew markworthy said:
Brian, a question - if you could, would you stop people borrowing things from each other if they were copyrighted?

Please be more specific in your inquiry.

Holadem · Jun 1, 2008

Damn.

--
H

Dennis Nicholls · Jun 1, 2008

And no matter who wins this argument, we IP lawyers get paid.

Matt Stryker · Jun 1, 2008

my question is, who is going to want to do the searches (and make the decision to confiscate or destroy)? My guess is that the different agencies will be tossing that football around for some time. This stuff has lawsuits over profiling, wrongful confiscation, failure of due process written all over it. But my guess is Customs will still get stuck with it, but will rarely use the priviledge unless they have a prior tip-off to warrant the search - which doesn't seem any different than today as Dennis pointed out.
There was a story a few years back about customs guys training dogs to sniff the smell of writeable CDs in luggage to try to catch inbound DVDs:
DVD-Sniffing Dogs (Comments)
The problem was, they detected every writeable DVD, including say your backed up mail files, videos of Jonnys 1st birthday, etc. So now they are working in commercial shipping facilities, trying to detect larger shipments.

andrew markworthy · Jun 1, 2008

Brian, you are normally calm and rational, so I can only assume that this issue has touched a raw nerve. I shall not make any further comments on this issue as clearly it is upsetting you too much.

KurtEP · Jun 1, 2008

Brian^K said:
Following the law, and advocacy of compliance with the law is praiseworthy. Advocating violating of the law is craven and condemnable.

:frowning:
Next, you're going to be advocating turning the U.S. back to the British, because, ya know, that revolution was illegal.

drobbins · Jun 1, 2008

MatthewA said:
Unreasonable searches and seizures, expressly prohibited by the Fourth Amendment constitution. I reiterate: how are they going to prove the source of music on an iPod, as to whether or not it was taken from a CD or a legally purchased iTunes file? What recourse does one have if the supposedly infringing material was destroyed in error?
No one is challenging the rights of intellectual property owners, but the callous disregard of the physical property rights of others.

I agree with this and this is the issue that needs to be addressed. I do not believe that the government should have the right to search your ipods and computers with out probable cause. As I have said in other posts they should not have the right to do roadside checkpoints for DUI either. No matter what the good intention is, it changes:
"Innocent until proven guilty" into "guilty until proven innocent."

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