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Is it too much to ask...


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#1 of 88 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

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Posted May 27 2008 - 11:12 PM

of the studios to lay off the DVNR?
I mean, considering this is for the foreseeable future, a niche format catering primarily to enthusiasts who are willing to pay some kind of premium for a 'higher fidelity' product- that there should be a covenant made to ensure that's what we'll get.
And rather than dumbing these releases down to be palatable to non-enthusiasts, wouldn't it be great if the studios engaged in an education campaign to foster appreciation for natural film-like transfers?
I'm only thinking here about a simple insert- in addition to the one telling you to update your firmware. This one could be more conversational in tone- like a short message from a prominent filmmaker explaining why the image on this disc won't look like the discovery channel - and then going on to suggest that the viewer can always avail themselves of their displays noise reduction feature if they 'must'.
Even better, they could really play up the 'high fidelity' special nature of this format and include content specific data like the film stocks used as well as notations for any special processes. Just think if there had been an insert like this in the Deliverence disc, for instance.The way it seems, we're back to square one but instead of letterbox bars its this sense of shame the studios seem to feel over the basic genetic make-up of their product.
Voices have to start getting raised over this stuff NOW before years go by and we are looking scores of releases that need to be re-mastered and properly re-released.
I mean, really..how many times are we going to have to re-buy these things?

#2 of 88 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted May 28 2008 - 05:51 AM

I'll be writing to every studio soon to tell them what I want...and do NOT want...out of Blu-Ray. I think we all should do that.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#3 of 88 OFFLINE   Michael Reuben

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Posted May 28 2008 - 06:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I'll be writing to every studio soon to tell them what I want...and do NOT want...out of Blu-Ray. I think we all should do that.
It isn't just Blu-ray. The abuse of DNR can make a major difference even on standard DVD. I just posted a review that addresses this very issue.

http://www.hometheat....ollection.html

M.
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#4 of 88 OFFLINE   Gary Murrell

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Posted May 28 2008 - 10:47 AM

no it's not too much to ask for no DNR! Posted Image

I will do my part while reviewing in regards to DNR, I come down hard on anything that goes thru my hands, you can count on that Posted Image

no excuse for this crap!!

-Gary

#5 of 88 OFFLINE   Jeff Robertson

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Posted May 28 2008 - 01:26 PM

Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?

#6 of 88 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted May 28 2008 - 01:26 PM

Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#7 of 88 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted May 28 2008 - 01:45 PM

I assume DNR is the reason that the Short Circuit BD is devoid of detail. I've been chatting with some folks at AVS about it but nobody could tell me if there is definite tag to identify DNR as the culprit as opposed to a not so detailed scan of the film. I imagine DNR is the most likely thang but I hate to have to quess or assume.

Hey, I only paid $14, shipped for Short Circuit and it's stille funny as hell. It beats the hell out of my ole Laserdisc. I really hope it's not the prototype of DVR'ed films. It's not quite the return of Blur-ray but it lacks fine detail which is most apparent in more distant shots for me. My gut feeling that it is, well could be, the definitive DNR jobbie so far.....?
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#8 of 88 OFFLINE   Michael Reuben

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Posted May 28 2008 - 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael B
I assume DNR is the reason that the Short Circuit BD is devoid of detail.
No, it's just a soft image. If DNR were the culprit, there wouldn't be so much visible film grain. I was quite pleased with the BR of Short Circuit, although it's certainly possible that a better image could be obtained (e.g., from different source materials).

M.
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#9 of 88 OFFLINE   Gary Murrell

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Posted May 28 2008 - 03:46 PM

the easiest way to spot DNR (if you have a display of enough quality to resolve the highest frequency detail available) is to look for the very fine film grain that is visible, if this is gone then DNR was used

Face/Off is the worst I have seen so far on either format, Top Gun and the Jack Ryan set (except CaPD) is pretty bad as well

I have a opinion on DNR and that is that it comes at the mastering stage, a few insiders pretty much confirmed this is the case as well most of the time, in addition to EE as well, both are 90% of the time added in the master, which is used for HD showing everywhere, from HBO to BD

one good example is The Mummy, horrible EE on D-Theater, SD DVD and the HD-DVD and I am willing to bet unless a new master was struck it will be on the upcoming BD as well

I have seen many titles on as many as 3 or 4 formats or TV channels that all had the same issues

my point is that BD authoring/mastering is not to blame most of the time, the studios are allowing poor mastering of their films by paying these crappy mastering firms to "make them look good", which some of them think means removing grain via DNR and boosting detail via EE

-Gary

#10 of 88 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted May 29 2008 - 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
Check out Robert Harris’ comments on The Longest Day in this area.
M.[/quote]Unfortunately there are many examples Michael. A few years ago I purchased a 2-disk set of Citizen Kane that was promoted as having “newly remastered picture and sound.” For me the picture had been cleaned up so much that some of the character (at least that I remembered was lost).
¡Time is not my master!

#11 of 88 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted May 29 2008 - 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
Check out Robert Harris’ comments on The Longest Day or Patton in this area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
It isn't just Blu-ray. The abuse of DNR can make a major difference even on standard DVD....

M.
Unfortunately there are many examples Michael. A few years ago I purchased a 2-disk set of Citizen Kane that was promoted as having “newly remastered picture and sound.” For me the picture had been cleaned up so much that some of the character (at least that I remembered was lost).
¡Time is not my master!

#12 of 88 OFFLINE   Jeff Robertson

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:20 AM

Hmmmm...I have Sleepy Hollow and Top Gun on HD-DVD. I only watched part of Sleepy Hollow but all of Top Gun and they appeared to look just as I remembered. Sleepy Hollow will be difficult to judge when it comes to DVNR due to its stylized look. I saw the film in the theater and then later on DVD. The HD-DVD appeared to be the same...just with greater resolution. Posted Image

I only have HD-DVD playback on my computer connected to a 37" Sharp LCD, I should point out. To more accurately notice a deliberate reduction in grain, I really need an HD-DVD player for my 57" rear projection set.

Before they're all gone, can anyone recommend a decent HD-DVD stand-alone player? Is the A35 from Toshiba the latest offering?

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.


#13 of 88 OFFLINE   Sam Davatchi

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:24 AM

Is it too much to ask ... for an appropriate title? Posted Image

#14 of 88 OFFLINE   Michel_Hafner

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - AVS Forum

#15 of 88 OFFLINE   Michael Reuben

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:29 AM

Quote:
I have Sleepy Hollow and Top Gun and HD-DVD
Sleepy Hollow has only mild DNR (if any). I haven't seen the HD DVD of Top Gun, because frankly I've seen the movie enough times.

The worst examples from Paramount that I've seen are Face/Off (worst by far) and The Untouchables (not as bad, but noticeable).

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#16 of 88 OFFLINE   Jeff Robertson

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:33 AM

Thanks. That's quite a list. I appreciate that some have included screen caps also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner


#17 of 88 OFFLINE   Douglas Monce

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.

Not quite, Sleepy Hollow has beautiful natural grain. Sahara doesn't seem to have any DNR applied. It's an anamorphic film and has very fine but visible grain. And Transformers exhibits quite a bit of grain particularly in the night scenes and looks very natural.

Doug
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#18 of 88 OFFLINE   Danny_N

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Posted May 29 2008 - 04:49 AM

I fear this is already a lost cause. Releases that look like video games usually get high marks from most reviewers and end up high on those silly picture quality tier threads on other fora, while releases that actually look like film get criticized for containing a little grain, a hair and a scratch here and there or whatever else that doesn't make them look smooth and give them "3D pop".

It's a shame because with BD we finally have a format that has the resolution to make film look like film and not like video, and now we have all those ignoramuses basically complaining that their films don't look like video anymore.

#19 of 88 OFFLINE   Jeff Robertson

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Posted May 29 2008 - 05:04 AM

This is why I only go to review sites run by people who appreciate "film". Yes, that includes Home Theater Forum. I imagine these "film enthusiast" sites also get those most attention from industry folks. That means our cause is not lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N
I fear this is already a lost cause. Releases that look like video games usually get high marks from most reviewers and end up high on those silly picture quality tier threads on other fora, while releases that actually look like film get criticized for containing a little grain, a hair and a scratch here and there or whatever else that doesn't make them look smooth and give them "3D pop".

It's a shame because with BD we finally have a format that has the resolution to make film look like film and not like video, and now we have all those ignoramuses basically complaining that their films don't look like video anymore.


#20 of 88 OFFLINE   Danny_N

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Posted May 29 2008 - 05:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
This is why I only go to review sites run by people who appreciate "film". Yes, that includes Home Theater Forum. I imagine these "film enthusiast" sites also get those most attention from industry folks. That means our cause is not lost.

I hope you're right but I fear it's turning into a case of the public gets what the public wants. And it seems to me that at the moment the public is largely made up of people who don't appreciate film per se.


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