Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.


Photo
- - - - -

Other than SVS....


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 of 30 OFFLINE   TwinDad

TwinDad

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2008

Posted March 28 2008 - 07:37 AM

Greetings, Other than SVS what else is out there in terms of a small / medium sized sub that does MUSIC spectacular? My wife freaked out when she realized how huge of a beast the SVS PB ULTRA 13 sub would be sitting in our Living Room. Thanks!!!

#2 of 30 OFFLINE   nolesrule

nolesrule

    Producer



  • 3,084 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 06 2001
  • Real Name:Joe Kauffman
  • LocationClearwater, FL

Posted March 28 2008 - 08:31 AM

Whose home theater is this anyway? Yours or hers? Posted Image

Just put a lacy covering over it and she'll never even realize it's there. Wives can be easily fooled. Posted Image

#3 of 30 OFFLINE   Ed Moxley

Ed Moxley

    Screenwriter



  • 2,701 posts
  • Join Date: May 25 2003
  • Real Name:Ed
  • LocationEastern NC

Posted March 28 2008 - 08:38 AM

I'm pretty sure SVS makes some smaller subs too. Tell her she's had the say-so about the house, since you've been married, but you're putting your foot down about the SVS sub. A lot of folks like HSU subs too. But, they're about the same size, I think.
Samsung HL61A750 (LED DLP)            Onkyo TX-SR805
Oppo BDP-83 Blu ray                                  Polk Audio LSi9
Polk Audio LSiC                                  Sony SS-MB100H
SVS PC12-NSD (Sub)                       ...

#4 of 30 OFFLINE   Rich Allen

Rich Allen

    Second Unit



  • 382 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 08 1999
  • Real Name:Rich Allen
  • LocationSalisbury MD

Posted March 28 2008 - 08:42 AM

I've got a Hsu VTF-2 mk3 that makes for a very nice end table. Try that route with her.

It's a subwoofer!
It's an end table!

No, it's both!!!!! Posted Image

#5 of 30 OFFLINE   Martino

Martino

    Supporting Actor



  • 698 posts
  • Join Date: May 05 1999
  • Real Name:Martin O.
  • LocationSanta Clara, CA

Posted March 28 2008 - 09:00 AM

So, you want a smaller sub than the SVS PB ULTRA 13?

Looking it up:
Dimensions:vApprox. 27” D x 20.5 " W x 22" H (w/o grill)
Internal volume: 12,177.00 cubic inches....

Price range: $1599 - 1699 depending on finish...

Is that your budget?
What system are you pairing this smaller sub with?

From the SVS web site, their smallest box sub - PB10-NSD has these dimensions:
15" wide x 19" high x 21" deep

Is that small enough? It will not have the performance of the SVS PB ULTRA 13...

Looking for a small, musical sub with a larger wife factor - I have a Velodyne HGS-12 that is very musical and on the smaller side - the HGS-12 model has been discontinued - but I looked up their latest servo-controlled replacements.


The server controlled Velodyne DD-10 might work for you and your wife - it's the smallest of that series:

Velodyne

DD-10
Dimentions: 11.75" x 11.75" x 13.5"
Internal volume: 1863.84 cubic inches....around 6.5 times smaller than SVS PB ULTRA 13 - that should be small enough for the wife...

Using the link below - the two reviewers seem happy with it:

Velodyne Acoustics DD-10 Reviews

From one of their reviews:

" I wanted clean, musical bass. I wanted an extension of the low frequency for my 800D mains. I wanted to see, feel and hear the swift kick drum sounds in a drum kit. I did not want people to come in to my listening room and say "awesome bass dude". I did not want "big wow" boom bass. I did not want overhang or muddy bass. Velodyne has allowed me to realize all of these goals at once. "

"Strengths:
Accurate bass for music.

I suppose another strength might also be the adjustability for those who prefer inaccarate bass for HT or to momentarily impress novice ears. They WILL "thump" if you configure them to."



Or, you could opt for the slightly larger, 12" version - this is the one that is a direct replacement for what I have and am very hapy with:
DD-12
14.5" x 14" x 15.5"
Internal volume: 3146.5 cubic inches - 3.87 times smaller than the SVS PB ULTRA 13

Here are the complete specs:
Digital Drive Specifications

#6 of 30 OFFLINE   mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter



  • 1,686 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted March 28 2008 - 09:41 AM

I was going to suggest the Velodyne servo subs, I have an HGS 10 that is very musical but can't hit the lows of that of the SVS.
If you have the coin, the JL Fathom 113 would be nice:JL Audio: Products
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#7 of 30 OFFLINE   brandonchenry

brandonchenry

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 129 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2008

Posted March 28 2008 - 09:48 AM

get one of SVS's cylinder subs. You can rock the house just like the pb13, but take up a fraction of the floor space.

#8 of 30 OFFLINE   TimJC

TimJC

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 62 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2005

Posted March 28 2008 - 10:00 AM

Silly rabbit.... there IS no other sub than SVS. Big smile. Tim
(aka OvalNut)
------------------------------------
He drove a black and white pirate ship at 190 mph.
- Dale in the #3 will never be forgotten. Thanks for the memories.

#9 of 30 OFFLINE   mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter



  • 1,686 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted March 28 2008 - 10:23 AM

Yeah but at three or four feet tall it'll look like a kitty scratching post, i'm sure the wife will be pleased with that but other than that, a great sub.
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#10 of 30 OFFLINE   TwinDad

TwinDad

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2008

Posted March 28 2008 - 03:28 PM

Martino, Thanks for the excellent detailed explanations and suggestions. Very much appreciated. My wife is kicking in half of the cash for the new HT system so her opinion counts! Eddie

#11 of 30 OFFLINE   TwinDad

TwinDad

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2008

Posted March 28 2008 - 03:34 PM

mylan, Thank you for the Velodyne DD suggestion. Need to visit their website. Space is a factor as this is going in a Living Room and not a dedicated HT room. Eddie

#12 of 30 OFFLINE   mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter



  • 1,686 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted March 29 2008 - 01:28 AM

Martino suggested it first, I just seconded it. If your wife is splitting the bill, really go check out the JL Fathom 113.
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#13 of 30 OFFLINE   BrianTwig

BrianTwig

    Second Unit



  • 252 posts
  • Join Date: May 01 2006

Posted March 29 2008 - 05:06 AM

I have the PB12-NSD/2. And my wife was none to pleased when she saw it. She walked in the room, I said This is the new Sub. She said "I am not happy" and walked out. Within days it disappeared into the room, totally forgotten about and not the giant visable eyesore she feared. It really does become just part of the room and forgotten about. Don't sweat it. Get it.
My budget system constrained by WAF

JVC HD-ILA HD-52G787
Panasonic DVD-S52K
Marantz SR5600Marantz CC4300NHT IW3s all aroundPureAV PF60SVS PB12-NSD/2

#14 of 30 OFFLINE   JohnRice

JohnRice

    Lead Actor



  • 8,594 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 20 2000
  • Real Name:John

Posted March 29 2008 - 11:03 AM

The SB-12Plus might be the way to go. It is significantly smaller than the PB10NSD, which is NOT the smallest SVS sub. You have a trade-off on extension, but if you are thinking more for music, it should be fine.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#15 of 30 OFFLINE   TwinDad

TwinDad

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 2008

Posted March 30 2008 - 04:36 AM

Sorry for not responding sooner - busy weekend with relatives visiting. Very little free time for myself. You know how it goes. Thank you for all the helpful ideas and experiences. I don't know. Prhaps a bigger nicely finished sub will blend - eventually. However, I must insist for my own sake that the sub is excellent at music reproduction since that is what I am primarily going to use it for. That is another reason I thought a smaller sub would be better - smaller drivers - quicker response - required for accurate music reproduction. Thanks again and I will research suggestions. Eddie

#16 of 30 OFFLINE   pink

pink

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 179 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 09 2007

Posted March 30 2008 - 12:45 PM

What you have to consider also is you're processor, on ever processor the sub is going to sound different so if your running a AVR don't expect too much. I have 3 processors and the subs sound different on every one. The worst sound I get is from the Rotel 1066, i also have a b@k which is my flag ship, but my best sounding one is the Atlantic P2000 which is a rebadged Outlaw 950, so what ever sub you buy is going to sound different when you get home, depending on your processor, so it might sound better or worse, keep that in mind. And I do have to agree with you on the size of the sub, for audio I would go for an 8" active with 8" passive and a 1000 watt amp, and you're in sonic heaven...Not boomy like most HT fans like, what you're looking for is quality sound not noise. Thight and fast..audiophile subs have the ability to stop when their supposed to, not whoople on like most subs do.

#17 of 30 OFFLINE   LanceJ

LanceJ

    Producer



  • 3,168 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 26 2002

Posted March 30 2008 - 02:40 PM

Probably one of the best looking subs I know of AND room-friendly:

Infinity Cascade Model 15

Yes, this 100lb acoustic-suspension* sub "only" gets down to 32Hz (+/- 3dB scale) but there's going to be some sacrifices for such a thin design. Includes their R.A.B.O.S. room optimization system - read a review of it here on another hi-end Infinity product.

* so there's an excellent chance it has more output below that, just at a reduced level

#18 of 30 OFFLINE   Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor



  • 8,214 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted March 30 2008 - 02:51 PM

Driver size has NOTHING to do with the response of the cone. Since the Adire Audio site is all but gone, I'm going to post the text of the technical paper by Dan Wiggins and Dr. David Hyre called "Subwoofer Speed".

Start Text
"There's a common misconception out there that heavy woofers must be "slow", and light woofers must be "fast". If a woofer A's moving mass is higher than woofer B's, then woofer A is probably going to be sloppy, or slow and inaccurate. Can't keep up with the bass line. Woofer A simply can't respond as fast as woofer B.

There's also this concept that the "acceleration factor" (BL/Mms) is an indicator of woofer speed/transient response. High BL, combined with a low Mms, should give great transient response, right?
Well, on surface these might sound like logical assumptions. However, they are in fact incorrect! More to the point, moving mass has precious little to do with woofer speed or signal response! And we'll prove it...
Go back to good old Newtonian physics... We're going to start with the famous law:

F=ma (eq 1)

Or force equals mass times acceleration. Anyone who's been through introductory physics (or watched a bit of PBS) should be familiar with the equation above. It's pretty much the bedrock equation of Newtonian physics - it's number 2 of the Big 3 Newtonian equations (the first being about interia, and the third being about complementary/opposed actions).

Now, let's look at a loudspeaker... What do we have? We have a coil of wire which creates an alternating magnetic field which interacts with the static magnetic field in the gap (see our page on DVC subs for a bit more information on this). How does the alternating magnetic field of the coil come into being? Well, the magnetic field is created by passing a current through the voice coil. As the current through the voice coil changes, the magnetic field created by the coil changes. This field interacts with the static magnetic field of the permanent magnet, and you get a force - the cone moves in and out. Just like two permanent magnets will attract/repel each other depending upon how they are oriented. And a bigger current means more force. Just like bigger/stronger permanent magnets mean stronger attraction/repulsion.

Additionally, what if we make the field of the permanent magnet stronger? Well, that's call the B field in the gap. Increase B, we increase the force as well. Or, what if we could somehow make the magnetic field from the voice coil stronger? We can - increase the number of turns of the voice coil (increase the Length of the wire in the gap). Guess what - in both cases, we increased the BL of the speaker (yes, this is the BL of the T/S parameters - now you know where it comes from!).

Now, let's go back to equation 1... Let's define each of the terms in that equation so we know what we're talking about:

F= Force
m = mass (moving mass)
a = acceleration


So, what is the Force (NO Star Wars jokes, please!). From above, we see that the force on the cone is the motor force factor (BL) times the current. So, let's rewrite equation 1 in these terms that are applicable to the loudspeaker:

BLi = ma (eq 2)

So, the Motor Force Factor BL times the current i equals the moving mass of the driver m times the acceleration of the driver a. Note that we have italicized i and a. There's a reason for it!
Now, back to the original question - transient response of a driver. What is transient response? Simply a measure of how fast the driver can respond to the input signal. That means that - inherently - there is a time dependency on the driver. How much TIME elapses before the driver responds. So, let's look at equation 2, and cancel out all terms that are not based on time. After all, if a quantity is time-invariant, then it won't affect time-variant effects like transient response (think of this as a simple offset).

Or, to put it in an analogy, does the 1/4 mile time of a vehicle depend upon where you start? No, the distance over which you measure is still 1/4 mile. So whether you start in front of your house and go straight 1/4 mile, or motor on down to the dragstrip and go 1/4 mile doesn't really affect the car's 1/4 mile time. The 1/4 mile time is strictly dependent on how fast the car can accelerate from a dead stop over a 1/4 mile length.

So, looking at equation 2 we see that:

BL is time invariant, assuming small excursions (assume an ideal motor with a flat BL curve; I know, most drivers don't have that, but assume that it does, like our XBL2 enabled motors). So BL is essentially a constant.

i is the current into the driver (we used italics to indicate a parameter that is time-variant). This is the music, or test tone sweep, or whatever signal is coming from the amp. It's an AC waveform so by definition it changes with time.

m is mass. Well, if the moving mass of the driver is changing as you operate, you've got big problems! The weight of the cone, dustcap, former, voice coil, surround, and spider are pretty much fixed. The don't change either. So m is essentially a constant.

a is the acceleration. This is what we're after. After all, the rate of change of acceleration IS the transient response - it's what dictates how fast the driver can change speed, which also means it dictates how fast the driver can move from position to position. And note that it's in italics, too. After all, acceleration in the time-variant parameter we care about here!

So, let's rewrite equation 2, and replace the time-invariant parameters with a simple "C" to indicate a constant (a parameter that does not change with time):

Ci = Ca (eq 3) or i :: a (eq 4)
(note: the "::" symbol is the mathematical symbol for proportionality; that is, i is proportional to a).

Interesting! This says that the change in acceleration of a driver - how fast it can change position - is strictly a function of the current through the driver. In fact, if you could make the current change infinitely fast, then the driver would accelerate infinitely fast, and we'd have infinite transients - zero time to change between states. Infinite frequency response.

So, now that we know that current is the driving force (pun somewhat intended) behind driver acceleration changes, let's look at what limits how fast we can ramp current through the driver. Because if we are not restricted in how fast we can change the current, then we are not restricted in how fast the driver can accelerate - transient response is not limited at all.

So, back to that loudspeaker model... A loudspeaker is a coil of wire wound on a former that attaches to the cone. The current flows through the coil, creating an alternating magnetic field that interacts with the static magnetic field of the permanent magnet. So, what could limit current flow? Well, what does a voice coil look like?

How about an inductor? You know, those coils of wire (hey, isn't that what a voice coil is) that you use in crossovers? Guess what - a voice coil IS an inductor! In fact, an inductor stores its energy in the magnetic field (as opposed to a capacitor which stores its energy in the electric field). It is this magnetic field of the voice coil "inductor" that interacts with the permanent magnet field we talked about above. Hey, a loudspeaker is an inductor hung on the end of a cone in a static magnetic field!

So, what about an inductor will alter the way current flows? Well, inductors don't like to have the current flowing through them change. They like to hold the current constant. They will allow you to change the current flowing in them, but the bigger the inductor (or, the higher the measured inductance) the longer it will hold the current before it starts to change (I'll leave it to the reader to go research inductance on their own, to learn why this happens).

So, the voice coil is an inductor. And we see that inductors don't like to change current. But we also see from equation 4 above that we need to change the current if we want to change the acceleration. So, the voice coil doesn't want us to change the current. How good is it at holding the current? Depends upon the inductance! The higher the inductance of the driver, the longer it can hold the current flowing through it. Which means the more time elapses before it starts to respond to the amplifier's applied voltage. Which means we have slower transient response.

Guess what - we just answered the original question! It turns out that transient response of a woofer is not a function of the moving mass, as is commonly espoused (one of the most infamous audio myths). In actuality, it is based upon the inductance of the driver. And the greater the inductance, the slower the driver - the lower the transient response."

There is a graph and measurements that follow the above information. I need to host the image, however, in order to show it to you. The information / text won't really help without the graphs. The final paragraph of the article reads:

"Mass isn't the problem - inductance is. So if you want faster transient response, ignore that moving mass parameter that some manufacturers push - look at the inductance! And if they don't list the inductance, ask yourself why - is there something they don't want to show? Inductance is the key to driver transient response - ask for it when transient response comes up!"
End Text

The SVS Ultra is an underhung driver. Since the voice coil winding length is relatively short, the inductance of that driver is naturally low. I'm sure that Stephen Ponte has loaded up the driver's motor with copper as well to further lower the inductance. That's one reason why the Ultra subs sound so good.

-Robert

#19 of 30 OFFLINE   SHS

SHS

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 194 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 01 2007

Posted March 30 2008 - 03:33 PM

ahem...what he SAID...
.....this is truly an illness

#20 of 30 OFFLINE   Barry_B_B

Barry_B_B

    Second Unit



  • 453 posts
  • Join Date: May 14 2001

Posted March 31 2008 - 01:05 AM



THANK YOU! My 20-39PC+ sounds great with music; this theory just won't go away. Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users