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Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films)
12111 replies to this topic
Posted July 17 2013 - 08:18 PM
It certainly was! After I tried to spell it once in the post, I checked the spelling and I was wrong of course. Others were pretty hard too.On another issue, I was just screening a bit of A Taste of Armegeddon. Did you ever wonder if Vendikar might have insisted that everyone declared killed after Kirk's arrival and intervention would still have to honor the list of those killed? So would Mea 3 still have to report to a Disintegration Machine?
Posted July 17 2013 - 08:48 PM
Well, sure, that's always the assumption we make about the resolutions on Star Trek (and other shows in which the hero moves on at the end). But you're right...we have no way to prove that Mea 3 and Ambassador Fox aren't killed five minutes after Kirk leaves. Or that Vendikar doesn't refuse the peace overtures and bomb Eminiar into oblivion. I think Star Trek's generally optimistic viewpoint tends to attract fans who are similarly inclined. So we believe that peace will succeed on Eminiar, and Cochrane and Nancy Hedford will live happily ever after, and the Horta will stop killing miners once they stop destroying the eggs, and the Providers will really train the thralls, etc. But the endings are left open enough that we have to believe along with Kirk because we don't come back to see how things are going.
Posted July 17 2013 - 09:28 PM
That was a hoot! When you put it that way, Lee, that's sounds pretty drastic! The Horta still killing afterwards and so on. Like M&M's, once you start, it's hard to stop! I agree that I've always assumed after the Enterprise leaves, all is well. Well, perhaps in the case of Parman, he might have gone back to his treachery. It's funny, the thought just popped in my head regarding the Eminians. Mr. Fox likely is a very competent ambassador and took care of everyone.
Posted July 17 2013 - 09:51 PM
I like it when stories don't go past the point of illustrating their themes and Star Trek was usually good about that. Yes, helping the people on Gamma Trianguli VI in The Apple or Sigma Draconis VI/VII in Spock's Brain is going to require lots of sociological and practical planning, with repeated visits and years of help and training. But those stories don't require that we see it. It does allow for the intellectual exercise, however, of imagining which resolutions may not have stuck. I agree that Plato's Stepchildren is a good possibility, though once Alexander is removed and the Federation has been warned, it's hard to care what the Platonians do to each other.
Posted July 17 2013 - 10:33 PM
Hmm, I just realized as I was reading your post and how we usually leave the story at that point of resolution, we don't need to see what happens afterwards. But we did, once. No, twice. I guess I can make that a mini trivia question as we keep on working on your planets.
Posted July 18 2013 - 05:46 AM
Well, Space Seed for sure. (And truthfully, I do blame Starfleet for a lot of that. They know for months in advance that Psi 2000 is going to be destroyed but Ceti Alpha VI blows up and they don't even know about it when they orbit Ceti Alpha V??) And what about Mudd's Women in a way?
Posted July 18 2013 - 06:02 AM
Since we're speaking of one of my all-time favorite episodes of TOS (A Taste Of Armageddon), did you ever ponder the line by Anon 7 after Kirk asks him with whom Eminiar 7 is at war?Kirk: With whom are you at war?Anon: The third planet in our system, called Vendikar, originally settled by our people and now a ruthless enemy -- highly advanced technologically.
I have often wondered what went wrong after Vendikar had been settled by the Eminians (if they were called that before whatever it was that divided them occurred). It's just one of those tidbits that I chew on every now and then.
Posted July 18 2013 - 06:41 AM
Have you ever read Milton, Captain? Right, Khan and Mudd had sequels. I had Mudd on my mind too last night. I was looking up Karen Steele's bio and didn't realize she died at such a young age, 56. I always thought she was an anomaly in Mudd's Women. She seemed older then the other two and maybe even older then Kirk. But she was a real actress which they likely needed and she played the part well. Scott, I would have imagined like many countries on Earth where there is some splinter and separation of a population due to political differences, hostilities have existed that inspired Ventikar.
Posted July 18 2013 - 06:52 AM
Oh yeah, the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI wasn't really explained in the screenplay. So good point for some lapses by Starfleet in that case.
Posted July 18 2013 - 08:38 AM
Of course! Conscience of the King was rich in planets under the flag of the Federation!I think I already named Planet Q. But there's Cignia Minor, a nearby Earth colony to Planet Q. And of course that unfortunate settlement on Tarsus IV. I am assuming those planets fit the criterion. And of course Lenore got the best of care on Benecia which was also already named.
Posted July 18 2013 - 10:57 AM
I've been waiting for Tarsus IV! Not all Federation planets are run by friendly commodores... Great catch on Cygnia. I forgot that one.Scott, I have never really considered that piece of Eminian history before. It may be a quick stab at colonialism, which did have so many wars in its 20th century aftermath. I'll definitely be thinking more about that dialogue.Eve was Kirk's first real female interest on the series and I liked Karen Steele. I thought she conveyed Eve's conflicted feelings about what she wanted in a believable way.
Posted July 18 2013 - 11:50 AM
I can't believe I hadn't thought of Tarsus IV earlier! That's a great point, even in the Federation, there are still a few bad apple Governors.For years Lee, Mudd's Women was never a favorite. Partly do to the sensationalism of how the women were set up perhaps. But mostly to the Mudd character and how from just a purely visual stand point, the goofy pirate costume.However, I have rediscovered it partly through yours and Scott's influence and from additional viewings on the remastered version. Great score! I've re-evaluated both Carmel and Steele's performances. And I totally agree, she was very good in the role and nuance in her conflict. How she looks at Kirk with a sense of either sympathy or regret or perhaps yearning when Childress tells Kirk he's busy and to come back later for the crystals while the miners were dancing with the girls. And I see some regret in Kirk's eye, even if its minute when he asks Eve if she wants to stay with Childress and she says, you've got someone named the Enterprise. His reaction seemed to show some pain.Carmel's portrayal had a tad more weight to it in Mudd's Women. I, Mudd was for laughs. I felt like Mudd was a real serious con man and potential murderer, but in I, Mudd, he was pretty declawed, with a hint of menace. I've seen a few more episodes of The Mothers-Law on MeTV. That show looks like it really had some bargain basement sets and minimal lighting effort. If it was really filmed before a live audience, as it has that feel, then I can understand the cheap sets and flat lighting. Carmel is doing pretty standard sitcom work there.I imagine Ventikar and Eminiar might have been modeled after North and South Korea or Germany and East Germany. The discussion of this episode also made me wonder why the Eminians didn't try to design more effective defensive measures, albeit virtual ones, to protect themselves from the bombs. Perhaps it's been constant upping of technology for 500 years.This is great stuff, to come back and re-evaluate Star Trek despite seeing the series so many times!
Posted July 18 2013 - 12:04 PM
You both bring up some excellent points with regard to Eminiar and Vendikar, and I can appreciate them from several different angles.
I have loved Mudd's Women for years, but as Nelson alludes to above, that was in large part due to the music score of that episode and due to the portrayal of Harcourt Fenton Mudd by Roger C. Carmel. I loved his accent in that episode, and I too believed he was more 'weighty' -- almost ruthless -- in that episode as opposed to I, Mudd (which I also love).
It's interesting how different a viewer's perspective can be. I had never thought (even for a moment) that Eve was an interest of Kirk's. Of course, you have to divorce the Venus drug from the equation, or else it really isn't genuine. Once I do that, I don't see Kirk liking Eve other than purely platonically. In fact, even while he begins to be influenced by Eve's appearance / magnetic charms due to the drug, he tries to dismiss any advances of hers (e.g., in his quarters).
Edited by Ockeghem, July 18 2013 - 01:54 PM.
Posted July 18 2013 - 09:25 PM
The truth is that Mudd's Women is not especially a favorite of mine. The fact that it is probably among my two or three least favorite episodes of the first season, however, really shows how great that first year was. I think the performances by Carmel and Steele (and William Shatner also), as well as the rich Steiner score, are the main assets of the episode. It's definitely a growing pains story; as we've discussed before, it is one of the more overtly western-influenced episodes and was probably one way of showing the network, "We really can get off the ship a lot, we promise!"Scott, you're probably right in that the "interest" is more on Eve's side than Kirk's. There is a whole subgroup of female characters in the series who develop feelings for Kirk just because he treats them with respect and acknowledges them as individuals in a way that is new in their experience. Eve would be the first, but Shahna, Marlena, Odona, Elaan and others would all eventually respond to that side of his personality. I do think he had some interest, even if it was just being wistful at the general idea of settling down with a nice woman. (I agree with Nelson's interpretation of his reaction to her parting words about the Enterprise. He wasn't only thinking of Yeoman Rand at the end of The Naked Time.)Nelson, that's so clearly true about the "declawed" Mudd in the second episode. I do find that one funnier, mostly because of Shatner and Carmel broadening their performances, but the character certainly lost any kind of menace.
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Posted July 19 2013 - 06:21 AM
Spock does smile a lot in Mudd's Women too!Wrigley's Pleasure Planet?
Posted July 19 2013 - 04:34 PM
I think Wrigley's probably counts. There is some measure of assumption with it, but it seems like the kind of thing that you'd go to knowing they were on your side.
Posted July 19 2013 - 07:28 PM
A little less mouth Darnell! :)Here's a long shot guess: I was pondering the disposition of Organia. My theory is they never joined, they don't need too. But the possibility of membership seems remotely plausible given there was an Organian Peace treaty. However, they could have called the treaty Organian because the Organians imposed it upon the Federation and Klingons.
Posted July 19 2013 - 08:35 PM
I do think the treaty was between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, as per allusions in The Trouble With Tribbles and Day of the Dove. The Organians seem to be in that crowded first season club of super beings whose reaction to humans ranges from disgust to mildly pleasant surprise, but none of whom really want to hang out with us.
Posted July 20 2013 - 05:03 AM
The Organian Peace Treaty is one of the gems of the original series, since it was clearly alluded to in later episodes (albeit gradually) and in later series and films (certainly). To have it be 'prophesied' in the first season of TOS was IMO a stroke of genius.
"The Organians seem to be in that crowded first season club of super beings whose reaction to humans ranges from disgust to mildly pleasant surprise, but none of whom really want to hang out with us."
Edited by Ockeghem, July 20 2013 - 05:03 AM.
Posted July 20 2013 - 04:03 PM
Perhaps in a thousand years or so, the Organians will meet to discuss an agreement.
We put into Cignet XIV for general repair and maintenance.
The female dominated planet must be also a Federation member planet.
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