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Are there any 50" or larger LCDs comparable in quality to the Kuro?


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#1 of 28 OFFLINE   ChrisCAB

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Posted March 03 2008 - 02:59 AM

My wife has given me the go-ahead to purchase a large lcd or plasma - the purchase will be in about a year when we move from our condo into a house.

I know that the Pioneer Kuro is the best flat screen on the market and I do prefer plasma to lcd based on what I've seen (I have both).

If I were buying a tv today I would definitely get the 60" Kuro. However, I don't want to rule out lcd.

My question I guess is whether there are any 50" or larger (preferably 60"-65") lcds that can compete image-wise with the Kuro. I don't think there are right now but I'd like confirmation. Also, do you foresee a jump in the quality of LCD flat screens in the next year that would change that?

Thanks

#2 of 28 OFFLINE   Steve_L_B

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Posted March 03 2008 - 04:55 AM

In my opnion, there are no LCDs that compete well in terms of overall PQ with the best plasmas. The chief advantage of LCDs is their higher light output and apparent contrast in bright environments. However, in the typical home viewing environment, plasma diplays provide better overall PQ. Plasmas have much better black levels, higher post-calibration contrast ratios, better motion resolution, wider viewing angles and no issues with screen uniformity (i.e. hot spots due to non-uniform backlighting). Additionally, at 50" and above, LCDs are still significantly more expensive than plasmas. Both Panasonic and Pioneer are expected to bring significant improvements in brightness and black level to next years plasma models, while reducing overall power consumption. This will make PLasmas even more competitive with LCDs.

-Steve

#3 of 28 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted March 03 2008 - 12:27 PM

Quote:
Are there any 50" or larger LCDs comparable in quality to the Kuro?
This is a very good question! (And one I'll need to answer for myself in a year or two. I'm locked into the Panny plasma I just bought, but I'll want something better ... someday.)


Quote:
However, in the typical home viewing environment, plasma diplays provide better overall PQ.
This is not true as stated. I have a plasma, and LCDs are better than plasmas in bright rooms, and rooms with a lot of direct light where glare from the more reflective plasma screen is a problem.

Now, if you had said that a plasma is better for dark room viewing, I would agree with that.

With all that said, there *have* been reviews in recent issues of HT Mag (and maybe S&V too) where some of the LCDs actually are approaching the blacks and contrast of the best plasmas. The Sony XBR4 series and one of the Sharp lines ring a bell.

But Pio will continue to push the envelope too.

But this is a good question nonetheless! Posted Image
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#4 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 03 2008 - 04:07 PM

No video display made today can deliver its best image in high ambient lighting conditions. This reality is explained in detail in this article: CinemaQuestv2.0 . High ambient lighting simply interferes with video screens in varying degrees. LCDs by design do a better job of rejecting and diffusing bright lighting but not completely. Reference viewing of valued programs such as cinematic art must be conducted in subdued or darkened environments, if optimum image fidelity is desired.

New developments in LED backlit LCDs have brought several image benefits. However, such methodology has not resolved the motion blur and switching speed problems characteristic with LCD panels. Plasma continues to be the best overall performer in delivering quality images when lighting conditions can be regulated, such as a home environment.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

#5 of 28 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted March 04 2008 - 02:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCAB
My question I guess is whether there are any 50" or larger (preferably 60"-65") lcds that can compete image-wise with the Kuro. I don't think there are right now but I'd like confirmation. Also, do you foresee a jump in the quality of LCD flat screens in the next year that would change that?

Thanks


Right now the only technology that can equal or better the Kuro for pure image quality are CRT based displays. The top of the line Samsungs LCDs with the LED backlighting are getting close, but still lose, mainly due to black level.

But the real question is which display is best for your room and viewing habits. Just because the Kuro has the best image quality among flat panels under test conditions doesn't mean it is the best display for you, even if it is within your budget.
Dan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

#6 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 04 2008 - 03:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Driscoll
Right now the only technology that can equal or better the Kuro for pure image quality are CRT based displays.
Where does one purchase one of these superior CRT displays?

#7 of 28 OFFLINE   ChrisCAB

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Posted March 04 2008 - 03:49 AM

Thanks for all the replies!

Basically, my feelings are confirmed - LCD remains inferior to plasma based on black levels and motion blur (both issues very important to me and are the main reason I prefer watching my plasma over my lcd).

That said, it sounds like LCDs are catching up re black levels. However, it doesn't sound like much progress has been made on the motion blur issue. (I've been to the electronics stores but I think you're a fool if you make any conclusions based on what you see there).

All things being equal I'd prefer an LCD due to weight, power and burn-in advantages, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist so it sounds like I'll be going with plasma for the better picture.

CRT displays are a non-issue at this point. All things considered, I actually prefer flat screens (plasma and lcd) by a pretty wide margin over CRTs anyway.

Who knows, maybe in a year things will have changed.

#8 of 28 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted March 04 2008 - 12:29 PM

Motion blur: the new 120 Hz LCDs do better than their ancestors, but I'm not sure how they compare to plasma right now. And different manufacturers have different ways of how exactly they implement 120 Hz.

And be careful because the best LCDs *are* better than an average plasma. IMO, Pio Kuro is the way to go if you indeed are a perfectionist. Panasonics certainly have their issues, but to get an LCD display that beats a Panasonic plasma costs a fair amount more too.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#9 of 28 OFFLINE   Dan Driscoll

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Posted March 05 2008 - 03:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB
Where does one purchase one of these superior CRT displays?

Used market. As far as I know, there aren't any current production CRT RPTVs on the market anymore. But if you have one already or can find one cheap and don't mind the space requirements and maintenance, CRT-RPTV still has the best large screen picture quality, IMO. Other than a CRT front projector, anyway.

However, in a couple more years I expect OLED, plasma, laser or another technology will surpass CRT, in all aspects. But until then I'm holding onto my Pioneer SD533-HD5.
Dan

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#10 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 05 2008 - 04:45 AM

I thought the poster was looking to purchase something new in about a year. Even with 120Hz developments, I haven't heard any results or announcements that promise LCD motion blur will be resolved entirely in the next year. Short of some dramatic development, plasma looks to be the best bet for overall image fidelity and picture quality. I have yet to encounter in 10 years a single customer of mine who is reluctant to turn down the lights when watching movies on their system. Plasmas are still plenty watchable in high ambient light conditions and frequently offer anti-glare treatments on the glass. For critical viewing in controllable lighting conditions, LCD still does not beat plasma if image fidelity is the goal.

#11 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 05 2008 - 05:26 AM

If you want a Pioneer Kuro panel, you better pick one up soon. Pioneer just announced they are ceasing plasma panel manufacturing and will use plasma panels manufactured by Panasonic. They also announced they would begin sourcing LCD panels from Sharp.

#12 of 28 OFFLINE   ChrisCAB

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Posted March 06 2008 - 02:37 AM

GeorgeAB, I just read that - what a bummer. Are they focusing on alternative technologies?

#13 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 06 2008 - 02:58 AM

It appears they are now going to offer some LCD displays, modifying panels from Sharp.

#14 of 28 OFFLINE   Steve_L_B

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Posted March 06 2008 - 05:30 AM

There is a possibility that Pioneer may license some of their technology to Panasonic in exchange for Panasonic supplying the plasma panels. FYI, Panasonic also demo'ed some new plasma displays that had black levels as good as the Pioneer Kuros at this year's CES. These new panels will supposedly come from a Panasonic factory that is slated to come online in 2009.

Based on the currently available information, I wouldn't panic about not being able to get a Kuro (or Kuro-like performance) in the furure.

-Steve

#15 of 28 OFFLINE   mohammad kahhaleh

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Posted March 07 2008 - 09:50 AM

Re: Are there any 50" or larger LCDs comparable in quality to the Kuro?

check this link:
Home Theater: The 2008 HDTV Technology Face Off
it is an exciting Face Off consisting of each of the major TV technologies. Two LCDs, two plasmas, two DLPs, and an LCOS battle for the eyes and minds of five distinguished reviewers.
Kuro was the winner,, but its worth to check the results,, and you maybe interested in Panasonic after reading this face off !

#16 of 28 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted March 07 2008 - 12:28 PM

Would have been interesting if they had looked at the Sony XBR4 LCD.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#17 of 28 OFFLINE   Ric Easton

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Posted March 21 2008 - 01:37 PM

Quote:
"However, in a couple more years I expect OLED, plasma, laser or another technology will surpass CRT, in all aspects. But until then I'm holding onto my Pioneer SD533-HD5."

Hear Hear! Or is that Here, Here! Hmmm... Anyway, I am still loving my old SD533-HD5 as well. Helped my father buy a Samsung LCD last year, and although its Hi-def signal looked great in the store, I was unimpressed with standard and DVD sources when he got it home. DVDs have always looked great on my set and I guess I was just spoiled. I even think my HD content looks more "film-like"

Anyway, at some point it will have to be replaced, so I was reading with interest about the Pioneer Kuro being the best Plasma and flat panel out there. Then I was shocked to learn just weeks later that Pioneer was going to be getting out of the Plasma business.

So making the best flat panel just not a priority? Now, I hope my CRT/RPTV lasts long enough for my next set to be an improvement and not a step back.

#18 of 28 OFFLINE   GeorgeAB

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Posted March 21 2008 - 01:54 PM

Pioneer's not getting out of the plasma business. They are simply ceasing the manufacture of the glass. Panasonic will be their glass panel supplier and Pioneer will use their own proprietary electronics, screen filter, special coating, etc.

#19 of 28 OFFLINE   Ric Easton

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Posted March 22 2008 - 01:27 AM

Thanks for setting me straight, George! That's making a little more sense to me!

#20 of 28 OFFLINE   DaleAV

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Posted March 24 2008 - 07:36 AM

Not only makes more sense, but 'common' sense would say if KURO can not continue and improve as they introduce newer models, they will fall flat on their face, regardless of how they obtain their glass.
The same goes for Panasonic who continues to show improvement also. Historically, both companies have supplied high end and commercial markets with panels (NEC too). No reason for quality to slip.
I like lighter panels, but when is that a really a problem? A small difference perhaps, when doing the initial installation?
Power consumption can be offset noticeably with a properly calibrated plasma too.
Pioneer is presently researching super thin plasmas also, which promises LCD like characteristics in profile, weight, and power consumption.
This is far from a static technology.
LCD will have to continue to compete and drop prices too. Not to say there is still not a place for them. On the contrary.
The stiffer the competition, the more we benefit! Posted Image


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