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7 Full Range speakers a bad thing?


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22 replies to this topic

#1 of 23 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted February 22 2008 - 12:23 PM

Ok here is my problem, i want to eventually upgrade my speakers to all towers, is there any reason to avoid this? I really cant think of one except for the obvious cost benefit, as most movies use the fronts more heavily.

However as a gamer and someone who still loves his surround audio, i can see obvious advantages to having ful range speakers all around.

any comments?
Cheers

John

#2 of 23 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 22 2008 - 12:34 PM

It's overkill and unnecessary, but that is no reason to completely discount the idea. The main reason, to me, is because there is virtually no way to get ideal placement of the surround speakers if they are towers. Surround speakers really need to be a few to several feet above ear level for optimum effect.

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#3 of 23 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted February 22 2008 - 12:39 PM

Thats a very good point on the placement.

but then i know my studio 60's have the speaker cones on the top half, the bottom half is mainly used for volume.

I guess i should ahve mentioned that ive currently got Paradigm Studio 60's for my mains and i eventually want to get studio 100's for the mains and shift these to the rears
Cheers

John

#4 of 23 OFFLINE   Greg Kolinski

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Posted February 22 2008 - 01:56 PM

I am runnning all tower speakers ,and have no problems.I still set the crossover at 80hz though.
The more I learn about this stuff ,the dumber I get

#5 of 23 OFFLINE   Brandy S

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Posted February 22 2008 - 02:24 PM

Bass cancellation would be the greatest reason to not use full range speakers all around.

#6 of 23 OFFLINE   chuckg

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Posted February 22 2008 - 03:02 PM

Oh, sorry but I do so disagree. I think you should have full range speakers all around. And, you definitely shoud still do the 80 Hz crossover with all speakers set to small.

If you don't have full range speakers in your surround set, you are seriously losing some great audio back there. I have exactly the same cabinets all the way round, and it is great. Just crank up Lord of The Rings if you need proof!

If you have room for the tower speakers, then you also have room to raise them up a bit to get the correct height...just put a fancy column under them, or a table, or whatnot. You could build them into columns, or hang them on the wall. Whatever!
--ignore the man behind the curtain

#7 of 23 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted February 22 2008 - 03:08 PM

Yeah Bass cancellation would be the biggest reason, but with the crossover set at 80, that should do the trick.

question though if the crossover is set at 80, why set the speakers to small?
Cheers

John

#8 of 23 OFFLINE   Brandy S

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Posted February 22 2008 - 05:21 PM

Here's what I'm not understanding - what is your definition of "full range speaker", and why have one, then cut it off at 80Hz?

#9 of 23 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted February 22 2008 - 05:34 PM

Well by full range speaker i pretty much mean a tower speaker, ie anythign that has a woofer, midrange and tweeter, so no bookshelfs.

for my specific instance i am thinking of using Paradigm Studio 60's for my sides and surrounds with studio 100's for the mains.

Reference Models:Studio 60

Reference Models:Studio 100
Cheers

John

#10 of 23 OFFLINE   Brandy S

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Posted February 22 2008 - 06:08 PM

The References are definately full range, no argument there. But why pay more for bass extension you aren't using (by crossing over at 80Hz)?
The 40s or even the 20s have excellent extension, and would be easier to place in my opinion. Plus being a woman, they look nicer to me not having to put them on stands. I had a reference setup a few years back with 100 fronts, 40 surrounds hung on the side and rear walls, and the Studio CC (whatever the model # was back then!) with a PW2200 (Sub). I still have the PW, but traded in the rest. I honestly didn't notice much difference upgrading from 60 fronts to 100s, especially with a subwoofer, but I liked the way they looked. Posted Image

#11 of 23 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 22 2008 - 06:45 PM

The problem with several of the arguments here is that "Tower" and "full range" are being used interchangeably.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#12 of 23 OFFLINE   Brandy S

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Posted February 22 2008 - 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRice
The problem with several of the arguments here is that "Tower" and "full range" are being used interchangeably.

Can you expound on that please?
Don't just leave us hanging in suspense!

#13 of 23 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted February 23 2008 - 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandy S
The References are definately full range, no argument there. But why pay more for bass extension you aren't using (by crossing over at 80Hz)?
The 40s or even the 20s have excellent extension, and would be easier to place in my opinion. Plus being a woman, they look nicer to me not having to put them on stands. I had a reference setup a few years back with 100 fronts, 40 surrounds hung on the side and rear walls, and the Studio CC (whatever the model # was back then!) with a PW2200 (Sub). I still have the PW, but traded in the rest. I honestly didn't notice much difference upgrading from 60 fronts to 100s, especially with a subwoofer, but I liked the way they looked. Posted Image
With my current speaker setup I have 100s as my main speakers with a 570 as my center and 20s as my four surround speakers with a pair of subwoofers in opposite corners. I'm very happy with that setup as it serves me well.





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#14 of 23 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted February 23 2008 - 01:30 AM

There's a school of thought that says
Quote:
Cross over your speakers at twice the 3 db point.

The goal, I think, is to have an essentially flat response between 20 Hz (or DC, if you're insane) and 20 KHz. The problem is that the subwoofer and "satellites" don't always mesh as smoothly as we would like, and there may be a hump, or trough located at the crossover point.

In any case, the paradigm speakers are not full range. They have a -2dB point of 44 Hz-- low, but not subwoofer territory. Perhaps small with a crossover of 50--60 Hz?

#15 of 23 OFFLINE   Patrick Hannon

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Posted February 23 2008 - 02:16 AM

I run full range speakers all around, except for a small centre rear speaker. The L/R speakers for front (Mirage OM-6) and rear (Acoustic Research AR-9) are good down to the 20 Hz range. The front centre consists of a Boston Acoustics VR-12 and a Mirage BPS-180 subwoofer. A Mirage BPS-400 subwoofer is used only for the LFE signals, all other channels are run full range. I find this arrangement to give a "full" and very "solid" sound, with bass effects (or pressure!) coming from all around.
Many years ago, I had smaller bookshelf speakers in the rear, crossed over to the sub and when it was replaced with the full range AR-9's the sound quality and surround feeling improved dramatically. I seem to be able to localize bass sounds (may be the room...or me) so this setup gives me a more satisfying experience. To each his own, but it would not hurt to try it out and see if you like it, especially if you are upgrading the front speakers anyway!

Cheers,
P.E.H.

#16 of 23 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 23 2008 - 04:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandy S
Can you expound on that please?
Don't just leave us hanging in suspense!
Heh, OK. Basically, just because a speaker is in a large cabinet (floor standing) doesn't mean it is "full range" and just because a speaker is in a smaller cabinet doesn't mean it it isn't reasonably "full range".

I definitely prescribe to the "double the -3dB point" theory, of setting the crossover to around double the point it really starts to fall off. A lot of processors let you do this effectively these days by allowing separate crossover points for each set of speakers. I admit there is a value to having all matching speakers, but there are a lot of problems associated with it as well, including the placement problems I already mentioned.

In my particular case, my L/R speakers are very large, heavy and expensive. Basic financial factors would definitely prevent me from buying and using 5-7 identical ones (though I saw one HT published whith did), not to mention placement problems. Still, I guarantee the system is better than would be possible by using a lesser "tower" speaker all around, just to have "towers" all around. To each his and her own. Someone asked for feedback, I provided mine and anyone can disagree with it as they like.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#17 of 23 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted February 23 2008 - 07:01 AM

It does seem as though "full range" has always been used with quite a bit of latitude. I doubt there are many true full range speakers anyway and they would be impractical for most because of the already mentioned size and cost. I would think 5 (or 7) identical really good speakers, with the same x-over setting, and an even better sub would be the ideal way to go. On the other hand, for various reasons, I wound up with towers, a dedicated center and bookshelves for surrounds so who am I to say what others should do Posted Image ? I'd love to hear something like the new Outlaw Audio L/C/R's set up that way, however.
"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
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#18 of 23 OFFLINE   mayhem13

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Posted February 23 2008 - 08:36 AM

The way i understand it, the optimium 5.1 or 7.1 system is all identical speakers for timbre matching is most desired. I don't think the frequency range of the speakers matters as long as it is capable of up to 20khz. As for placement, i think the reference standard is the high frequency driver at ear level regardless of the assigned speakers channel( sub excluded of course).

#19 of 23 OFFLINE   Gabriel.H

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Posted February 23 2008 - 01:54 PM

From what I understand "Full Range" speakers are determined by their frequency range, not their size. A set of tower speakers that has a frequency range of 45Hz-20KHz is not full range. Bookshelf speakers that can produce thunderous bass like that of a subwoofer in the 20Hz region and also is able to go as high as 20kHz or more would be considered "Full Range".

#20 of 23 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted February 23 2008 - 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel.H
From what I understand "Full Range" speakers are determined by their frequency range, not their size. A set of tower speakers that has a frequency range of 45Hz-20KHz is not full range. Bookshelf speakers that can produce thunderous bass like that of a subwoofer in the 20Hz region and also is able to go as high as 20kHz or more would be considered "Full Range".

well typically the ability to produce the low bass is a function of the volume of air displaced, and bookshelf speakers typically dont have the volume, but towers are more likely to. of course thats a generality but i think it is true for the most part.
Cheers

John


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