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BEST/WORST MOVIES AT 24fps


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15 replies to this topic

#1 of 16 BrandonH

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Posted February 11 2008 - 04:10 AM

Not sure how to start this thread so please bare with me
I understand how the technology is applied and what it is supposed to do.
so this thread is to discuss the movies that are...
a) best when played back at 1080p 24fps.
b) worst when played back at 1080p 24fps.
Noting to do with the movie itself or the 1080p 24fps technology.
this is for those that already have 1880p 24fps HD-DVD / BLU-RAY players and 1080p 24fps 120hz sets.
The reason for starting this is because I have discovered that some HD content does not always do well at 24fps and that there is little info on the movies themselves.


This is what I have so far

worst at 24fps
HD-DVD Lady On The Water looked better when played back at 1080p only.

best at 24fps
Transformers
Live free or die hard
Ratatouille
Shreck 3rd

#2 of 16 BrandonH

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Posted February 20 2008 - 01:22 AM

Blu-Ray
Pirates of the Caribbean"At World's End"

I had not played this one since I bought a set that accepts 1080p/24fps so last night I popped it in and...
Great picture at 24fps
but the total menus will flicker/roll real bad.
once out of the menu it plays fine.

#3 of 16 willyTass

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Posted February 20 2008 - 01:29 AM

anyone else notice the slight judder in The Shining (blu ray)?

i have it playing at 1080p24 into a plasma (kuro) which is set at 72Hz and still i see what looks like judder (not seen in other titles).

The transfer is stellar though

#4 of 16 Paul Arnette

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Posted February 20 2008 - 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonH
Blu-Ray
Pirates of the Caribbean"At World's End"

I had not played this one since I bought a set that accepts 1080p/24fps so last night I popped it in and...
Great picture at 24fps
but the total menus will flicker/roll real bad.
once out of the menu it plays fine.

What player do you have? I did not notice this on my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1.

Edited to add:

I see in your signature you have a Samsung BD-UP5000. I think this may be an issue with your player, as I stated above I am not experiencing this with mine.

Edited to add again
:

Actually, it just occurred to me that I have my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 set to Source Direct. That being the case, the menus on PotC: AWE are probably something other than 1080p/24fps. Incidentally, the Source Direct feature on my Pioneer Elite is fantastic. I really wish Toshiba could have gotten something similar working for their HD-XA2.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#5 of 16 Douglas Monce

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Posted February 20 2008 - 02:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyTass
anyone else notice the slight judder in The Shining (blu ray)?

i have it playing at 1080p24 into a plasma (kuro) which is set at 72Hz and still i see what looks like judder (not seen in other titles).

The transfer is stellar though

Any film that is shot at 24 fps is going to have SOME motion judder. 24 is a fairly slow frame rate and motion judder is unavoidable. It is visible even in the theater. Unless your HDTV uses some kind of motion smoothing software, which personally I think makes a movie look like video and there for crap, you are going to see some judder.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers

#6 of 16 willyTass

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Posted February 20 2008 - 02:45 AM

Thanks Doug I wasnt aware of that . I saw first hand evidence of this "smoothening" effect on a sony bravia: glad I got the Pioneer.

#7 of 16 Paul Arnette

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Posted February 20 2008 - 02:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyTass
Thanks Doug I wasnt aware of that . I saw first hand evidence of this "smoothening" effect on a sony bravia: glad I got the Pioneer.

I'm jealous of your Kuro. Posted Image I have the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1. I love it, but there's always something better isn't there. Damn this 'hobby'! Posted Image
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#8 of 16 Jari K

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Posted February 20 2008 - 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Any film that is shot at 24 fps is going to have SOME motion judder.

Sure, but I guess it´s mainly because TV-set accept only 50/60hz. Or something. Posted Image

Does it still have motion judder with 24fps TV-sets (I don´t have one, so I don´t really know)? Of course, HD-player has to support native 24fps also..

(btw. That "motion judder" is very minor to my eyes and not a deal breaker at all)

#9 of 16 BrandonH

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Posted February 20 2008 - 03:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
What player do you have? I did not notice this on my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1.

Edited to add:

I see in your signature you have a Samsung BD-UP5000. I think this may be an issue with your player, as I stated above I am not experiencing this with mine.

Edited to add again
:

Actually, it just occurred to me that I have my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 set to Source Direct. That being the case, the menus on PotC: AWE are probably something other than 1080p/24fps. Incidentally, the Source Direct feature on my Pioneer Elite is fantastic. I really wish Toshiba could have gotten
something similar working for their HD-XA2.
It may be a player issue IDK but it does not do it in straight 1080p with 24fps turned off.
The movie itself is perfect no rolling at 24fps.
I will ask the others in the 5000 owners BD-UP5000 Universal Player Samsung [OFFICIAL OWNERS THREAD] & FAQ - Page 160 - AVS Forum thread if they have experienced this.

#10 of 16 Sean Laughter

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Posted February 20 2008 - 06:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
Sure, but I guess it´s mainly because TV-set accept only 50/60hz. Or something. Posted Image

Does it still have motion judder with 24fps TV-sets (I don´t have one, so I don´t really know)? Of course, HD-player has to support native 24fps also..

(btw. That "motion judder" is very minor to my eyes and not a deal breaker at all)

I guess you could say there are two kinds of "judder" in these cases. There's the judder due to pulldown (?) when a 60Hz set (or a 120Hz that doesn't do the 5:5 cadence) has to convert 24fps for display. This is an artifact introduced during home playback on these sets.

Then there is "native" 24fps judder that is inherent to how motion is recorded at a 24fps framerate. I guess some might refer to this more as "strobing" or if you're of the engineering bent you could say you're making Nyquist roll over in his grave. This is inherent to shooting motion at 24fps and is seen even in a movie theater when viewing a film projection. (I'm guessing digital projection suffers the same thing since I'd assume they shoot at 24fps as well, I've yet to see a movie via digital projection at a theater).

#11 of 16 Douglas Monce

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Posted February 20 2008 - 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Laughter
I guess you could say there are two kinds of "judder" in these cases. There's the judder due to pulldown (?) when a 60Hz set (or a 120Hz that doesn't do the 5:5 cadence) has to convert 24fps for display. This is an artifact introduced during home playback on these sets.

Then there is "native" 24fps judder that is inherent to how motion is recorded at a 24fps framerate. I guess some might refer to this more as "strobing" or if you're of the engineering bent you could say you're making Nyquist roll over in his grave. This is inherent to shooting motion at 24fps and is seen even in a movie theater when viewing a film projection. (I'm guessing digital projection suffers the same thing since I'd assume they shoot at 24fps as well, I've yet to see a movie via digital projection at a theater).

I think you have nailed it down pretty well here. I will say that I think the motion judder produced by 2:3:2 pull down is actually fairly similar to the motion judder or strobing you see from straight 24fps film projected in a theater. Perhaps a bit more pronounced.

And again I have to say that I HATE HATE HATE this motion smoothing stuff they are putting on the 120hz HDTVs. Fortunately I think you can turn the motion smoothing feature off on most of them and just get straight 24fps.

Doug
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Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers

#12 of 16 Douglas Monce

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Posted February 20 2008 - 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
Sure, but I guess it´s mainly because TV-set accept only 50/60hz. Or something. Posted Image

Does it still have motion judder with 24fps TV-sets (I don´t have one, so I don´t really know)? Of course, HD-player has to support native 24fps also..

(btw. That "motion judder" is very minor to my eyes and not a deal breaker at all)

Yes 24fps HDTVs should display the strobing or judder that is a normal part of a film that is shot at 24fps.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers

#13 of 16 willyTass

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Posted February 20 2008 - 06:11 PM

when I saw HD-DVD's "Mutiny On The Bounty" at 1080i60 the judder was very pronounced

By judder I mean a split second "jerky" movement whereby the actors shift side ways. Almost like some frames went missing ! Posted Image

I expected it at 1080i60 but it didnt detract from the fantastic film that Mutiny was.

was surprised when i saw it during the Shining at 1080p24 but i must admit it was only mild - the TV's refresh rate was 72Hz

By "strobing" do people mean when an actor moves against a stationary background the actor blurs transiently- i saw this "artifact " even with Sony Studio monitors and assumed it was due to phophor lag.. Still see it now on the Kuro. Would you see this on 35 mm film??

#14 of 16 Douglas Monce

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Posted February 21 2008 - 03:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyTass

By "strobing" do people mean when an actor moves against a stationary background the actor blurs transiently- i saw this "artifact " even with Sony Studio monitors and assumed it was due to phophor lag.. Still see it now on the Kuro. Would you see this on 35 mm film??


Yes even on 35mm film projected in a theater at 24fps you will see this strobing or judder effect. The interesting thing is if you have ever seen a film that is shot in the Showscan process. Showscan is 70mm film shot at 60fps. Even in a movie theater it looks remarkably like video.

Doug

Edit: one thing that can effect the 24fps strobing is the shudder speed used on the camera. A good example of this is the battle sequences in Saving Private Ryan. The standard shutter speed for a film camera shooting at 24fps is 1/48th of a second. In SPR they often shot with the cameras at 1/100th of a second or faster. This creates that flickering effect you see in those scenes. This was also done in the action scenes in Gladiator and several other recent action movies.
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers

#15 of 16 BrandonH

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Posted February 21 2008 - 04:49 AM

http://www.hometheat....ml#post3330433
I moved this to a fresh new thread
The above thread was closed my the moderator.
This thread was to talk about movies that do well and dont do well at 24fps not the technology itself which is where thread was beginning to lead to.
So I wanted to start the above thread to talk about the 24fps technology likes and dislikes.
Oh well no matter






#16 of 16 Stephen_J_H

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Posted February 21 2008 - 08:18 AM

One more thing about 24fps "judder": it is more pronounced in horizontal tracking shots than other pans (vertical for example). In theatres, this can be reduced through the use of specialized shutters and rectifiers, but can never be totally eliminated.
"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player."-- Roger Ebert


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