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Toshsiba HD-A35 or Onkyo DV-HD805 ?


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#1 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 18 2008 - 10:47 AM

While the upgrade of my 1st generation Toshiba HD-A1 is currently on hold. I am however keeping my options open and am still looking into a player to replace my HD-A1. I just saw the Onkyo DV-HD805 at Fry's Electronics and while it was hooked up using component video it still looked good. And the face plate looked alot nicer than the Toshiba HD-A35. However the Toshiba HD-A35 seems to have gone through a price drop from $499 to $299. The Onkyo to my knowledge sales for aprox. $799.

Who here has the Onkyo DV-HD805 and who has the Toshiba HD-A35?

Is there a clear cut difference between the two? And is the Onkyo worth the extra $500?

Onkyo DV-HD805 $799
HQV Reon-VX Video Processing
Bitstreams Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD (Does not state if it is full DTS-HD or Core Only)
HDMI 1.3a
1080p

Toshiba HD-A35 $499 reduced to $299
?? Video Processing
Bitstreams Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD (Core Only)
HDMI 1.3
1080p

I have to admit the Onkyo DV-HD805 would look good sitting in the rack along with a Denon AVR-3808ci receiver and a Denon DVD-2500 BT Blu-ray Transport. Posted Image
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#2 of 21 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted January 18 2008 - 12:26 PM

there have been reports that the Onkyo is merely a rebadged Toshiba HD-XA2.

#3 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 18 2008 - 12:53 PM

I have heard that the Onkyo was a rebadged Toshiba but besides the sleeker exterior. I was wondering if the Onkyo had been tweeked and modified to where it was better than the Toshiba A35 or not? If not I might just have to save some cash and pick up the A35, maybe. The one thing I do not like is that it only bitstreams DTS-HD core. I might be picking up some import HD-DVD's with DTS-HD MA but if I do not I guess it will not matter if the A35 does not do DTS-HD MA via bitstream.
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#4 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted January 18 2008 - 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
I have heard that the Onkyo was a rebadged Toshiba but besides the sleeker exterior. I was wondering if the Onkyo had been tweeked and modified to where it was better than the Toshiba A35 or not? If not I might just have to save some cash and pick up the A35, maybe. The one thing I do not like is that it only bitstreams DTS-HD core. I might be picking up some import HD-DVD's with DTS-HD MA but if I do not I guess it will not matter if the A35 does not do DTS-HD MA via bitstream.
If you're buying a 3808 receiver then let that decode the DTS-HD MA instead of the player. You can pick up the A35 for $270 from Amazon which is a very good bargain. Also, if your heart is set on having the player decode the DTS-HD MA then why don't you buy the XA-2 which is cheaper than the Onkyo?

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#5 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 18 2008 - 05:02 PM

Thanks Robert for the information as it is very much appreciated. Posted Image

I am going to keep the A35 on my list for a low cost solution. But I am going to seriously look at the XA-2 like you suggested, as long as it can do DTS-HD MA.

Are you sure the XA-2 will bitstream DTS-HD MA? I found the Toshiba page that said it only delt with DTS-HD core only. And Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS is listed as 5.1 audio. I am assuming that all HDMI 1.3 can output 7.1 audio. So I guess it all boils down to audio capabilities. If I can get DTS-HD MA bitstream that great but since this is not my primary HD player and the format could be dead soon. I may have no problem getting the A35, but I am going to check out the AX-2 first.

Do you know how much the AX-2 is currently selling for? I think it used to retail for $999 but you would think the price has come way down by now. Especially with the A35's being dropped down to $299.
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#6 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted January 18 2008 - 07:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Thanks Robert for the information as it is very much appreciated. Posted Image

I am going to keep the A35 on my list for a low cost solution. But I am going to seriously look at the XA-2 like you suggested, as long as it can do DTS-HD MA.

Are you sure the XA-2 will bitstream DTS-HD MA? I found the Toshiba page that said it only delt with DTS-HD core only. And Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS is listed as 5.1 audio. I am assuming that all HDMI 1.3 can output 7.1 audio. So I guess it all boils down to audio capabilities. If I can get DTS-HD MA bitstream that great but since this is not my primary HD player and the format could be dead soon. I may have no problem getting the A35, but I am going to check out the AX-2 first.

Do you know how much the AX-2 is currently selling for? I think it used to retail for $999 but you would think the price has come way down by now. Especially with the A35's being dropped down to $299.
Dave,
If I was you, I would buy the A35 knowing that I will have a receiver that can decode DTS-HD MA. The A35 can pass through it's bitstream all of the advanced codecs including the one in question to a receiver like the 3808 that can do the decoding. IMO, it's the best cost effective move you can make. I have the XA-2 and just bought the A35 because it was the most bang for my buck as buying another XA-2 would cost me $599 instead of $270. I'm using the A35 to replace my XA-1 in my bedroom HT. Furthermore, if prices drop even further I'll probably buy another A35 as a backup unit due to what I think is going to happen with this format.

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#7 of 21 OFFLINE   Pete T C

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Posted January 19 2008 - 01:01 AM

I would go with the HD-A35 and put the money you would have spent getting the Onkyo DV-HD805 on an Onkyo 875 (or better from the Onkyo/Integra line - I have the Integra DTC-9.8 myself paired with a Parasound HCA--2205 power amp) receiver instead. The main difference is the Reon chip for standard DVD deinterlacing and the 875 has this builtin. I'm a huge Denon supporter but it is clear that Onkyo has Denon beat this round - audio quality just as good and far better video options.

Since the 875 has the Reon chip built-in, if you send it 1080i from the A35 it will look just as good as the XA2 or DV-HD805 (that is exactly what the XA2/DV-HD805 are doing internally, anyway). The bonus, of course, is that your Blu-Ray player & HDTV deinterlacing will also be improved. Anything you feed the Onkyo 875 will be flawlessly scaled & upconverted to 1080p with Reon. And, you will get an audio upgrade to boot!

If you are concerned about 1080i setting for BD/HD DVD, don't be. I've done craploads of test doing direct 1080p24 output compared to 1080i deinterlaced to 1080p with Reon HQV and there is not a lick of difference on my Sony 60" 120hz HDTV. Plus, 1080p24 doesn't work with all hidef movies! Documentaries, concerts, and other material can be recorded at 1080p30 or 1080i, both of which stutter with 1080p24. So setting the HD DVD/BD player to 1080i is a better "set it and forget it" setting than 1080p24, and there is no quality difference so long as you are using a quality deinterlacer - again, like the Reon HQV in the Onkyo 875. Heck, with the 875's Reon HQV doing the deinterlacing you might even have a better experience with the upcoming Panasonic BD50 instead of the Denon transport; the Panasonic would be used as a "transport" in the same way in that there is no D/A conversion going on with video or audio, and the deinterlacing differences for SD DVD upscaling won't matter because Reon HQV takes care of that. Plus the BD50 supports BD-Live when the Denon does not - and you won't invest so much in a player that will probably be far outpaced in loadtimes by players coming out a year from now. If you say "hey, I won't use BD-Live anyway," then you can save some more cash and pick up the Panasonic BD30.

So, in summary, get an HD-A35 (set to 1080i) and an Onkyo 875 instead of your current receiver pick. It will look and sound just as good as a DV-HD805 + Denon 3808, but it is actually a less expensive combo AND *the rest* of your sources will look better on top of this! I would easily bet that the Denon Blu-Ray transport you are looking at will have better results with DVD upscaling when using the Onkyo 875 instead of the Denon 3808. Onkyo's Reon HQV is much better than Denon's Faroujda DCDi in the 3808, and that will be abundantly obvious with standard DVD. Better to be product smart than brand loyal.

P.S. -- With the current state of HD DVD personally I would save another $150 and simply get the HD-A3 over the A35. In the above combo you won't need to use the 1080p output of the A35 and the bitstreaming capabilities are not necessary either since very few HD DVDs actually use DTS-HDMA (no major US titles use it) - A3 has builtin decoders for the rest. Again, there is no D/A conversion so it makes little difference whether decoding is done in player or in receiver.

Toshiba HD-A3 + Panasonic BD50 + Onkyo 875 = $900 saved with better video quality and no significant audio quality difference... That $900 could then be used for more significant/noticable upgrades like getting the Onkyo 905 / Integra DTR-8.8 instead of the 875 - or tons of other things such a large amount of money could bring like new main speakers or a new sub. Heck, you could trade the Onkyo 875 for a Integra DTC-9.8 and use that $900 towards a power amp and you'll have seperates! On the whole your theater will be improved all around by spending money in any of these ways rather than (IMO) overspending on the subtle upgrades the Denon transport would give you and lower quality deinterlacing on standard DVD the Denon receiver and/or transport would give you.
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#8 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 19 2008 - 07:18 AM

Hello Robert,

I just want to thank you for your input on the HD-DVD player, I really do appreciate you opinion. Posted Image


Hey Pete,

Onkyo TX-SR875
  • SRP $1,699.00
  • 140 watts @ 8 Ohm 20Hz to 20KHz, .05% THD
  • Frequency Response 5Hz - 100KHz +1,-3 db (Direct Mode)
  • S/N 110 db
  • HDMI 1.3a
  • 3 Coxial Digital In / 2 Optical In / 1 Optical Out
  • 4 HDMI In / 1 HDMI Out
  • 3 Component Video In / 1 Component Video Out
  • Reon-HQV™ HD video scaling up to 1080p
  • Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master Audio
  • Neutral Surround Sound
  • Audyssey Multi EQ TX
  • One 12 v trigger
  • XM Radio Connection
  • Tripple Zone
  • RS-232 Conection
  • 7.1 Analog Input / 7.1 Preamp Out
  • 1 AC Outlet
  • Weight: 50.9 lbs
Denon AVR-3808ci
  • SRP $1,599.00
  • 130 watts @ 8 Ohm 20Hz to 20KHz, .05% THD
  • Frequency Response 10Hz - 100KHz +1,-3 db (Direct Mode)
  • S/N 102 db
  • HDMI 1.3a
  • 3 Coxial Digital In / 3 Optical In / 2 Optical Out
  • 4 HDMI In / 1 HDMI Out
  • 3 Component Video In / 2 Component Video Out
  • Faroudja DCDi HD video scaling up to 1080p
  • Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master Audio
  • Neutral Surround Sound
  • Audyssey Multi EQ TX (Can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro)
  • Two 12 v triggers
  • Ethernet Connection
  • USB Connection
  • Denon Link
  • XM Radio Connection
  • Tripple Zone
  • RS-232 Conection
  • 7.1 Analog Input / 7.1 Preamp Out
  • 2 AC Outlets
  • Weight: 39.4 lbs
Denon DVD-2500 BT Blu-ray Transport
  • SRP $999 (Not sure but I could sware that it was SRP $1,200
  • Native bit stream output for Dolby Digital+, Dolby TrueHD, and dts-HD master audio
  • Fully 10-bit processing for i/p and scaling circuit
  • Digital media disc support: Blu-Ray, DVD-Video, DVD-R/RW, CD Audio WMA, MP3, Kodak picture CD, Fuji Color CD.
The Denon DVD-3800 BDci does use the Realta sxT2 HQV video processor but has a SRP of $1,999.00 I have no idea what scaler the DVD-2500 BTci uses? I thought it was the Realta sxT2 HQV video processor but I can find no trace of it being mentioned on Denon's web site for the 2500bt.

I do not know why but the Onkyo TX-SR705 and the TX-SR805 did not impress me. I know that the TX-NR905 has a nice toridal transformer and the following items that the lower models lack. While the Onkyo says it has 10 more watts per channel there will be no difference in volume between the two. I am wondering where the Onkyo TX-SR875 picks up the 10 extra pound from? I have heard problems with some Onkyo models down grading video via HDMI and I am not crazy about amplifiers that run to hot. Exesive heat can contribute to distortion IMHO so that is why it concerns me. It is going to be aprox 4 months before I can buy a new receiver. So I am going to do some more critical listening of some receivers, maybe tomorrow? While I have said I would not buy an Onkyo I will revalute that statement and give the TX-SR875 another listen. I want to see if the sales people will let me push the receiver and see if it runs hot. I also want to evaluate the video switching on it. I am currently not convinced that the extra $100 for the Onkyo is worth it, not yet at least. So if I do change my mind about the Onkyo I may end up eating some crow. Posted Image The Denon 3808 can upgrade its firmware and I do not think the Onkyo 875 can.

Onkyo TX-NR905
  • SRP $2,099.00
  • 4 HDMI In / 2 HDMI Out
  • Toridal Transformer
  • Ethernet Conection
Not sure what else because Onkyo seems to be having problems with there website again.

The way it currently stand this is what I may end up with by the end of the year. Goal for 2008
  • Denon AVR-3808ci Receiver SRP $1,599
  • Denon DVD-2500 BTCI Blu-ray Transport SRP $999
  • Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD Player SRP $299
Alternate receiver choices:
  • Pioneer VSX-94TXH Receiver
  • Onkyo TX-SR875 Receiver
  • Yamaha RX-V3800 Receiver
Goal for 2009

Upgrade current Sony 50" 720p native HDTV / 3LCD to a 1080p 60" or 70" HDTV. Am looking into the new laser tv technology and maybe a Mitsubishi 1080p HDTV? Brands I am considering:
  • Sony
  • Mitsubishi
  • Samsung
  • Panasonic
  • Pioneer
I will have to say no to LG!
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#9 of 21 OFFLINE   Pete T C

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Posted January 20 2008 - 06:41 AM

Well it seems you are really set on the Denon receiver and player, and while I don't want to upset your preferred brand of choice, I'd just advise going over how well a system would work in my first example - and take a hard look at how soundly Onkyo has beat Denon this round in terms of features. In essence you only have to buy one expensive device - the receiver/video processor and as a result even cheap HD DVD/BD players have similar video quality to expensive ones because the high quality receiver is doing the video processing. That saves a bunch of cash that you can spend on devices that make a REAL difference (as opposed to just a name/status branding), like a dedicated power amp.

Let me rephrase my advice, though. If you are insistent on going with the specific Denon receiver that lacks Reon, I'd recommend the Onkyo DV-HD805 for its Reon HQV video processing. If you are so against Onkyo receivers that you would not consider the 875/905, I would go with a player that has builtin Reon HQV deinterlacing because for standard DVD there is no other processor that comes close - stuff like DCDi in the Denon receiver is like amateur hour in comparison. And based on Denon's specs even the costly Denon transport lacks Reon HQV, you need to buy the $2k one for HQV processing.

I just think it makes more sense now to go with a higher quality Onkyo/Integra receiver/processor now that has builtin Reon HQV and compliment it with cheaper HD DVD/BD players as the spec and hardware evolves. Why spend $1000 on a Denon transport that is not even complete in specifications? You could get the upcoming Panasonic BD50 for $600 that DOES meet all of the final specifications and hook it up to the Onkyo 875/905 for deinterlacing and get a perfect picture plus all the features of BD-Live. Or you could save some cash and get a BD30 that has the same features as the Denon transport. Just seems a lot more efficient and sensible to go one of those routes IMO. If you want a Denon player badly, use the BD50/BD30 until Denon releases a reasonably priced BD-Live player in 2009-2010.

I can't comment personally on the quality of Onkyo's amps, but the Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro I have (Onkyo's high end line) blows my previous Parasound AVC2500 pre/pro out of the water - and that is no easy feat! I have it hooked up to a 300x5 Parasound power amp and the sound is amazing. So I'm betting the 875 or 905 would be pretty great too. If you really want big sound, go for the torroidial and seperate power circuitry of the 905. They do run hot, but they have a lot under the hood so that is to be expected. So long as the device is designed to run hot and gets ample ventilation, there should be no problem. I know I have had none even though I use the DTC-9.8's Reon HQV and Audyssey features fulltime with the sound cranked.
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#10 of 21 OFFLINE   Shane Martin

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Posted January 20 2008 - 08:36 AM

Quote:
While the Onkyo says it has 10 more watts per channel there will be no difference in volume between the two. I am wondering where the Onkyo TX-SR875 picks up the 10 extra pound from?
A better amp section that meets its rated spec. There's a reason the 3808 wasn't rated as a S&V product of the year like the 875, the Denon 4308 or the Yamaha RXV1800/3800 series.

Pete is pretty dead on.

#11 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 20 2008 - 10:35 AM

I have decided to get the Toshiba HD-A35 instead of the Onkyo. After giving it a lot of thought it does not seem wise to invest the extra money into a format that is on the edge of death. I figure that the A-35 will be a nice upgrade from my HD-A1 and I can also bitstream lossless to my new receiver.

As far as the receiver goes I am going to take your advise and take a better look or listen to the Onkyo TX-SR875 receiver. I plan on going back and listen to the Denon some more and listen to the Onkyo as well. The last time I was at UE I did not remember the Denon's video looking bad and they had it hooked up to a Sony VPL-VW60 1080p projector using a 120" screen. So I will seriously consider the Onkyo and will see what happens.

I was also looking at the new Panasonic BD50 and I may get that instead of the Denon. I did not have a problem with the Denon not being a profile 2.0 player. I honestly do not care about if a player is profile 1.1 or 2.0. I have no use for the internet feature on HD-DVD or Blu-ray. All I personally want is the ability to enjoy full 1080p video and playback the lossless audio tracks. To my knowledge the profile 1.1 is the final mandatory spec for Blu-ray and 2.0 is optional.

I can see getting an Onkyo being a slight inconvenience as I can put a Denon on layaway but I can not do the same thing at Fry's. Posted Image
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#12 of 21 OFFLINE   Pete T C

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Posted January 20 2008 - 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
As far as the receiver goes I am going to take your advise and take a better look or listen to the Onkyo TX-SR875 receiver. I plan on going back and listen to the Denon some more and listen to the Onkyo as well. The last time I was at UE I did not remember the Denon's video looking bad and they had it hooked up to a Sony VPL-VW60 1080p projector using a 120" screen. So I will seriously consider the Onkyo and will see what happens.

I was also looking at the new Panasonic BD50 and I may get that instead of the Denon. I did not have a problem with the Denon not being a profile 2.0 player. I honestly do not care about if a player is profile 1.1 or 2.0. I have no use for the internet feature on HD-DVD or Blu-ray. All I personally want is the ability to enjoy full 1080p video and playback the lossless audio tracks. To my knowledge the profile 1.1 is the final mandatory spec for Blu-ray and 2.0 is optional.

Here's an idea. Instead of the 3808 and Denon transport or BD50, why not just then get the Onkyo 905 and the BD30? You can use the money saved on the BD player to put towards a more powerful receiver. If you aren't going to use the BD50 features anyway, might as well consider the BD30 and Onkyo 905 as the BD30 will likely be $200 less than the BD50 when it debuts. It also depends how much power you need. I have PSB Stratus Gold speakers for mains and they suck a lot of power from my Parasound amp, if yours are less needy you could probably get away with the 875 instead of the 905 and just save money altogether.

One other problem. With these new receivers, listening to them instore is not going to say much about their capabilities or tonal characteristics IMO. For instance, the Onkyo with Audyssey MultiEQ XT enabled and set up properly for the room it is in is going to sound totally different than when it is disabled or not setup properly like it will most likely be in the store. Another problem is that store listening rooms can be optimized differently. For instance one might be very "dead" with lots of absorbant material and one receiver might sound more detailed than the other - then when you take it home in your normal room the more detailed receiver all of a sudden sounds bright. Luckily with the aforementioned EQ these problems are minimized these days Posted Image

Also remember this is not about one setup looking "bad" and the other "good". Both will look "good." But the one I outlined above will look significantly "better" IMO. So more like "good" and "awesome".
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#13 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 20 2008 - 11:57 AM

My main speakers are Altec Lancing Voice Of The Theater A-7's which are very efficient. They sound great with as little as 1 watt and when my father owned them he used to have a commercial Yamaha power amp hooked up to them. The commercial Yamaha power amp was a 300 rms stereo amp. So I am not worried about power output so much. And a toridal would offer better sheilding against RF noise.

Does the BD30 bitsteam Dolby and DTS lossless?

I will be evaluating what receiver I will actually end up with over the next few months. I will be saving every penny for my next receiver so it will most likely take a few months. My next purchase will be a receiver and then a I will upgrade my Blu-ray player. I might just pick up the Toshiba HD-A35 right after I buy the Blu-ray player. Then I will be saving for a new 1080p HDTV in 2009. I tell ya this home theater hobby has gotten alot more exspensive. Posted Image
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#14 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted January 20 2008 - 02:28 PM

Dave,
Which receiver you buy is your business so I'm not going to try to convince you to buy a Onkyo, Denon or any other brand. However, with that said, if I was you, I would save my money to buy the best receiver that I can which will do all of the decoding of the advance codecs. Therefore, if you get the Toshiba A35 and Panny BD-30, both players will bitstream the advanced codecs to your future receiver and allow it to decode those codecs. Now, I'm basing that on you not really wanting the features of a 2.0 profile BR player because you won't use them. If that's not the case then hold your horses on the BR player since the BD-50 will be coming out in the next 3-4 months.

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#15 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 20 2008 - 03:13 PM

Hello Robert,

No problem I am glad to have the input of yourself and other member who love HT as much as I do. I am sure this receiver research is going to drive me crazy after awhile. Posted Image I do not think I have ever spent so much time researching a peice of HT gear in my life.

I was just reading some info on Faroudja DCDi and Reon HQV and while the articles where all saying that the Reon does a better job. I beleive that a article also stated that it did not matter when you sent 480p or 1080p through the scalers. It mattered when sending 480i or 1080i video through the scaler, this is what I took away from the articles.

I also heard about some customers having there Onkyo TX-SR875 receivers that shorted out or caught fire. Has anyone here had one catch fire?

Home Theater Shack : Electronics Retailer: Online Shopping for Home Theater, Consumer Audio and Video Electronics: Receivers: Onkyo TX-SR875 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver

Anyway the Denon AVR-3808ci is still my primary choice but I am going to look at some other options before I pull the trigger. Posted Image I would have to beleive that if Onkyo was having a big problem with receivers catching fire they would pull them off the shelf. But one thing that is being well documented in reviews is that the Onkyo's run hot. I think I am going to put a $2k cap on spending and will increase it if I come into some cash. But its tough building a high performance HT on a budget especially when money is tight most of the time. Posted Image But I also agree about getting the best receiver I can afford, that is how I try and make every purchase. This purchase could end up being the biggest pain in the butt ever. But after all is said and done I have no doubt that I will be extreamly happy with what ever I end up buying! Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
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#16 of 21 OFFLINE   Pete T C

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Posted January 21 2008 - 05:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
I was just reading some info on Faroudja DCDi and Reon HQV and while the articles where all saying that the Reon does a better job. I beleive that a article also stated that it did not matter when you sent 480p or 1080p through the scalers. It mattered when sending 480i or 1080i video through the scaler, this is what I took away from the articles.

Right, the catch being that standard DVD is always going to be processed as 480i due to the inconsistent flagging on DVDs, many BDs are in fact 1080i, and HD cable/sat is 1080i. So while you could set your player to 1080p, all you are doing then is letting the player deinterlace all DVDs and the many BDs that are interlaced - generally doing only a so-so job in the process. And for many players setting them to 1080p will require them to deinterlace all sources internally. But if you set your player to 1080i and send it to the Reon, you get fantastic quality deinterlacing for all sources DVD, BD, HD Cable, whatever you throw at it. That way you don't have to worry about whether a player has good deinterlacing or not, because you can simply output the signal interlaced and let Reon HQV do all the heavy lifting no matter what player you choose. In a way, it takes the most important part of video processing out of the player and puts it into the hands of the receiver/Reon instead. Which is a good thing because most players and many HDTVs completely blow it when deinterlacing. So by having that video processor in the receiver you can save money and worry less down the line on which player and even which HDTV you pick, as you know that your Reon chip in your receiver will be doing the deinterlacing the right way with every single source. Regarding 1080p24 sources, I know mentally many shudder at the idea of going 1080p > 1080i > 1080p, but so long as the deinterlacer is high quality the final output makes no difference; I've verified this with my TV on even the most challenging scenes. So the best way to experience hidef IMO to preserve maximum quality while at the same time not having to go into the setup menu to change resolution for every movie is to simply output at 1080i and let a quality video processor due to the 1080i > 1080p conversion. Set it to 1080i, output to Reon for 1080p deinterlacing, and forget it - you are good to go on all sources regardless of the quality of the player or the progressive/interlaced nature of the source; I would not feel confident doing this with DCDi.

Quote:
But one thing that is being well documented in reviews is that the Onkyo's run hot.

They do run hot, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a more under the hood of the high end Onkyos than other receivers so of course it will dissipate more heat. Re: some defective units, you will always see that in consumer electronics no matter what brand you buy. My GeForce 8800GTS and Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 also run really hot, but that is simply how many electronics are designed these days to get the most out of each chip - and they work just fine running at those hot temps.

As long as you give the receiver ample ventilation (i.e. not shut off from the air in an enclosed A/V cabinet), it won't be an issue. Like I said before, I push my DTC-9.8 to the limit and run it all day long without problems (its in a standard open-air A/V rack). The other Onkyo receivers are all big sellers so you would see many more complaints if there was some widespread problem, but the complaints are few and far between - most love their units from what I've seen.
For every shadow, no matter how deep, is threatened by morning light.

#17 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 21 2008 - 03:17 PM

Quote:
Right, the catch being that standard DVD is always going to be processed as 480i due to the inconsistent flagging on DVDs, many BDs are in fact 1080i, and HD cable/sat is 1080i. So while you could set your player to 1080p, all you are doing then is letting the player deinterlace all DVDs and the many BDs that are interlaced - generally doing only a so-so job in the process.

I have allways been under the impression that most DVD's are encoded at 480p. And I am not aware of any Blu-ray's encoded in 1080i. As far as I know all my Blu-rays and all of my HD-DVD's say 1080p encoded. So I would think that the player would not have to do much of anything as long as it has a 1080p scaler onboard. I beleive for example the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray does nothing to the 1080p video and leaves it in it raw state. So that leads me to beleive that unless someone has a 1080i HDTV then the player would have to do nothing. But then it would have to deinterlace the picture for a 1080i HDTV.

Is this basically how it works?

Quote:
They do run hot, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a more under the hood of the high end Onkyos than other receivers so of course it will dissipate more heat.

I have allways been under the beleif that an amplifier that runs to hot tends to get distortion added to it. In the past I beleive that manufacturers did not build there amps to run really hot for a reason. I am not to sure why Onkyo seems to think it is ok now? While I am trying to keep an open mind on the Onkyo I have a problem with the heat issue to be honest with you. I have a Elite rack and concidering where the first shelf is fixed there would be more than enough room for the Onkyo to breath. I am considering getting new racks but I am holding on to the ones I have for now. They where the only ones that would fit my former McIntosh MX-130 depth wise, at least the only rack I could find locally in Sothern California at the time.

Quote:
Like I said before, I push my DTC-9.8 to the limit and run it all day long without problems (its in a standard open-air A/V rack).

Isn't your DTC-9.8 a pre/pro? And it runs hot? I am just trying to think of what possible reason a pre/pro would ever run hot for any reason? I can see if you had a DTR-7.8 or 8.8 receiver putting out some heat as they have amplifiers in them.
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#18 of 21 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted January 21 2008 - 05:31 PM

Quote:
I have allways been under the impression that most DVD's are encoded at 480p.


Nope. 480i. They can be flagged as progressive or interlaced, but the flags are often wrong. Good deinterlacing chipsets figure out which mode to use by looking at the video itself. The best ones, such as the Reons get it right every time. The bad ones occasionally comb and moire.

#19 of 21 OFFLINE   Pete T C

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Posted January 21 2008 - 09:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
I have allways been under the impression that most DVD's are encoded at 480p.

Nope, see Jeremy's post above, he's right on the money Posted Image

Quote:
And I am not aware of any Blu-ray's encoded in 1080i. As far as I know all my Blu-rays and all of my HD-DVD's say 1080p encoded. So I would think that the player would not have to do much of anything as long as it has a 1080p scaler onboard. I beleive for example the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray does nothing to the 1080p video and leaves it in it raw state. So that leads me to beleive that unless someone has a 1080i HDTV then the player would have to do nothing. But then it would have to deinterlace the picture for a 1080i HDTV.

An example of some 1080i Blu-ray discs:
* HDScape titles (virtually all of them)
* Nature's Journey and many other nature videos
* Nine Inch Nails: Beside You in Time and most other concerts
* Anything shot in 1080p30 (Blu-ray spec does not support 1080p30 so its encoded at 1080i60 to preserve original framerate)

Also, when set to 1080p most (though not all) Blu-ray players decode every signal internally to 1080i, then internally deinterlace it to 1080p (when not using direct 1080p24). Every Toshiba HD DVD player also does this. Though rememeber even when set at direct 1080p24 you run into problems because not every disc (and not every PiP visual commentary for that matter) is 1080p24, some are 1080p30 (on HD DVD, BDs at this res are stored as 1080i) or 1080i60 - and those do not display properly at 1080p24 usually stuttering annoyingly. And of course for straight 1080i BD titles you are often back to needing a good deinterlacer like Reon to retain full quality. So 1080i60 (which can house both 24fps and 30fps framerates) with a good video processor is the only "set it and forget it" resolution that retains maximum quality... I know I don't want to sit there, anxiously watching the first 2 minutes of the disc (which are often not marked at proper framerate/resolution on the back cover) to see if it has stuttering or artifacting to determine whether I have to switch the player out of 1080p24 and into standard 1080p/1080i or vice versa - which often requires stopping the disc and going into the player setup menu, then restarting the disc. Yuck Posted Image

Quote:
I have allways been under the beleif that an amplifier that runs to hot tends to get distortion added to it.

This sounds like an old wives tale. For instance, Parasound has some of the most respected and highly reviewed power amps out there like the HCA-3500, HCA-2200II, and HCA-2205A and they run hot as heck.

Quote:
Isn't your DTC-9.8 a pre/pro? And it runs hot? I am just trying to think of what possible reason a pre/pro would ever run hot for any reason? I can see if you had a DTR-7.8 or 8.8 receiver putting out some heat as they have amplifiers in them.

DTC-9.8 isn't scorching but it has some heat coming out of it. I know the Reon for one puts out some decent heat. It also has three high powered DSPs to process Audyssey and all the advanced sound formats. Unlike some other Audyssey devices - which may disable Audyssey at high resolution - the DTC-9.8 can even do Audyssey MultiEQ XT with 24/96 TrueHD and 24/96 DTS-HDMA due to its DSP processing power.
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#20 of 21 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted January 22 2008 - 03:06 AM

I understand what you guys are saying but it still seems to be a waste to take 1080p decode it as 1080i then interlace it back to 1080p. Seems like a waste of processing to me.

I will be going to UE today and will be looking into the following gear:
Denon AVR-3808ci Reciever
Pioneer VSX-94TXH Reciever
Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu-ray
Pioneer BDP-95FD Blu-ray

Tomorrow I am going to stop in and look at the Onkyo TX-SR875 and TX-NR905 closer. I will have to find a retailer that is close by that have those models hooked up. The Fry's does not have those two models hooked up so I will have to find a retailer here in North Phoenix that has them hooked up, not just sitting on a shelf.

The Denon DVD-2500 BTci does not seem to be out yet so I can not check that out yet.

I have actually decided to get the Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD but the receiver and blu-ray have priority over the HD-DVD player.
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