DVD Forum approves 51GB triple-layer HD DVD spec (Disney votes for it) (1 Viewer)

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/15/d...r-hd-dvd-spec/
Toshiba's been demoing a triple-layer hybrid HD DVD / DVD system for a couple years now, but it's been all unofficial until today, when the DVD Forum steering committee voted to approve the spec as part of the official HD DVD standard. The third 15GB layer bumps the total capacity of HD DVD up to 51GB, matching Blu-ray's 50GB disks. Of course, we wouldn't expect to see a flood of content on the new disks anytime soon, what with all those shiny new double-layer players getting sold right now, but it's interesting to see HD DVD step up in the one area Blu-ray was clearly superior. The stalemate continues!

How dare they, specially considering that no one ever needs more than the holy grail '30 GB' capacity? This is a lawsuit in the making after all this is going to make all existing HD-DVD players obsolete? They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.






PS: Sorry guys, just could'nt help myself. After all the jabs taken at Blu-Ray regarding their Profile 1.1 and Profilt 2.0 issues, this seemed like such a juicy target.

This is the vibe I get too when I think of the HD tech minus the obligatory corporation hoodwinking part.

I just feel like this stuff is still so new for me at least, and too soon to invest.

I can sorta see a coporation's side to some degree though - they gotta put out something in order to feel out a demand for it, make more, or make improvements.

And of course, there's no guarantee that existing players will work with such discs. Forget firmware, I'm talking about the laser's ability to physically read the third layer.

Glad I'm still on the fence for now.

RDjam over at AVS says that all three generations should be able to read the discs with a firmware upgrade. He's yet to spread any false information, but we'll have to see.

Sanjay's analogy with BD profiles versus a higher disc capacity for HD-DVD is a false one.

The Sony profiles require new hardware not just a firmware upgrade. On the other hand, The TL-51 discs "should" play on all Toshiba hardware. The TL-51 will not make existing HD-DVD hardware "obsolete."

None of us will know for certain until Toshiba or one of the other entities involved in the production of the disc issues a press release. I'm predicting that we'll probably witness a full working demo at CES. My understanding is that the TL-51 would not have been approved two days ago if it couldn't be made to operate in legacy players.

That's pretty amazing, if it happens. Toshiba appears to have built a surprisingly robust system.

What has being approved two days ago got to do with whether TL-51 is backward compatible? That brings me to a hypothetical scenario, what if 2 layers of the TL-51 discs work with, but the 3rd layer cannot be read by the current players, is that considered compatible?

Seriously, if you ask me there would actually be nothing wrong in a format choosing to add new features to the specs even if the new features are not compatible with existing players. Because by this logic technology would always be stuck at some reference point. If the VHS commitee had not allowed HiFi stereo sound to be added the the VHS specs, then we would have remained stuck with linear track quality mono sound forever in VHS. I can state several such examples wherein new features have been added to existing formats, but I am sure everyone gets the point I am trying to make. Dolby Digital/DTS or for that matter digital sound on laser disc are also perfect examples of the same. Mind you in the latter case the new laser discs with digital sound were not compatile with the then current players that could only do analog sound.

Damn, just realized I might actually be defending HD-DVD. What's wrong with me? Excuse me but I need to go get a reality check.

Actually, didn't LDs with DD or DTS carry that track as a bitstream on alternate audio channels more typically used for commentary tracks while an analog track was maintained? This would be similar to VHS continuing to have linear tracks with the AFM track embedded in the same part of the tape as the video signal, albeit at a different azimuth. It's called "backwards compatibility" and is hardly analogous to what's going on here. Technology now is largely software based in the HD realm, what with "firmware" updates and such. Granted, the BD profiles may require additional hardware for decoding such things as additional video streams for PiP capability, but that's hardly the same thing as using software to tell the player that there is a 3rd substrate layer on a disc for it to read. Nothing should have to be physically done to the laser to make it capable of reading the 3rd layer.

Sanjay, why does this have to turn into another war thread? It is obvious that you don't like the HD-DVD format and bash it at every turn, so why do you even care about TL-51 or DL-30 for that matter? The OP linked a story to endgadget and you just had to follow up with a snide remark. I believe the admins have dedicated threads for war talk.

First off, I never said "I knew" anything for sure. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Secondly, you were the one who drew the premature analogy between BD's profile issues (which we know does require a hardware upgrade) to the TL-51 which has yet to be announced publicly by Toshiba. I only stated what I had heard from an insider at AVS, I never said it was gospel. Let's wait and see if these discs are backwards compatible before we make sarcastic statements like:

This is a lawsuit in the making after all this is going to make all existing HD-DVD players obsolete? They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.

With that, Stephen JH has outlined some pretty common logic in his last post.

Sanjay, will you please relax a bit?

The HD DVD format getting more bit space on their discs, officially, than BD isn't the end of the world. Even not for you, I suppose.

That goes for anyone else to whom it applies - not only in this one thread!


None of us knows if the existing players will be able to play discs made according to the new specs. But we'll see - when (if) they eventually hit the market.

First it has even to be proven that those discs can be manufactured at all without too much problems (the problems still surrounding the pressing of BD50 are a token of that uncertainty).

No need to get in a (verbal) fight long before that and purely based on the news of the newly accepted specs alone.

Please read the sticky message on top of this subforum: on this forum we will not allow unnecessary format war-talk, except moderately in two designated threads.

And please consider this an official warning. Thanks for understanding.


Cees

Again, that was said as a joke and the words were basically taken from another thread in which such similiarly inane comments were made regarding Blu-Ray's move to profile 1.1 Obviousy, it seems my sense of humor is not shared by you and for that I apologise. But honestly, that statement was made totally in jest and I expected everyone to see that as such. Never for a moment did I ever feel that there is anything wrong with TL-51 being added to the HD-DVD spec and I most certainly do not feel that this qualifies for a lawsuit.


In closing I'd like to add, that from another situation in another thread it seemed like your posts in response to mine and vice versa were progressively and inadvertantly getting too personal and since it is not in my nature to stoop to that level, I had decided to try and abstain from making any further 'war' like posts. In keeping with that attempt my original post in this thread was never an attack on HD-DVD, but was only what seems to have turned out be an 'obviously poor' attempt at a joke.

I did not see your post before I made the post above. I know there is a long gap between when you posted and when I did, but the fact is that I had started my reply to ReggieW's post before you made yours. But while I was typing my reponse, some friends arrived to spend the evening together and I left the window open with my incomplete post. After my friends had left and only after I was done with a few other things including watching a movie, sadly in SD on DVD, I returned to my PC and to the unfinished post. It was only after I completed and posted it that I saw and read your post. Thus if you feel there is any material in my previous post that is out of line, please let me know and I shall gladly edit it. Thanks for understanding. I realize your job is not easy and I certainly don't aim to make it any more difficult.

By the way, may I request you to please read my original post again, for you might see that it was only made in jest and not as an attempt to further any 'war' talk, for the purpose of which I am aware that there are two designated threads.

I think it's good that they may or may not have the ability to add features to already released product.


It would be preferred that Blu-Ray features could have been implemented on already released players. It seems they couldn't, and the TL51's story hasn't quite been written yet.



For one thing, a Triple Layer would definately be good for tv series. The more shows on one disc the better.

Sanjay,

Yes, I reckoned something like that might have happened,
And anyway, I was going to let you keep those closing words.
Thanks for your explanation!

But please, no more tit-for-tat in this thread anymore and/or unnecessary comparisons between the two formats (or predictions about their fate).

One format got new specs, this thread tries to concentrate on that news.


Cees

Does HD-DVD need more than two layers for movies? Two layers should be more than sufficient for movie and special features. I think the space is more for the PC side where it can hold more data. Double layers for the DVD side never really taken the world by storm either. I have nothing but bad luck with dual layers media. Always failed and it's very unreliable. Most newer DVD burner claimed to be able to burn up to 8 times on rewritable but I still haven't seen one single Re-writable media anywhere. It probably exist in the lab only. I think most poeple just want affordable player that's all and with studios taking sides only make matter worse. One good thing came out of this is that it drove the price down a lot faster than anyone expected.

I sincerely hope that there will not be any more 'threadcrapping' here as I'm sure that this topic will retain its' interest and develop over time as more 'official' announcements are made .

It will be intriguing to see whether this will be a firmware upgrade bonus on HD players in the future . Absolutely no more need for combos then if it is

~M~

I think the odds are probably much higher than 50:50. But as we will probably not see a 51 GB dick for the forseeable future, there is alot of time for Toshiba to test this. On a positive note, at least there is only on Manufacturer of HD DVD drives. That should make the testing that much easier.

As a rule of thumb, no it does not. I some cases, albeit few, a second disk for the movie would be required (I.E. Extended Editions of LOTR). What it does do is add flexibility for the studios to be able to create Special Editions on a single disk, instead of two. In that way, a 51 GB disk would have advantages over a 30 GB.

Since one of the selling points of HD DVD has been forward compatibility via firmware update of all existing players it would be foolish to release triple layer discs if they are unusable on existing players.

One scenario if these were unusable with existing players would be if the triple layer discs would be solely for data storage on computers with HD DVD drives, not for movies.

Even Toshiba had admitted before they were unsure whether they'd be backwards-compatible, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions.

Even if they are, who's to say the reliability will even be as good as the combo discs. Going beyond 2 layers always seems to wreak havoc.

As far as movies go, though, we all saw a big difference when dual-layer discs became the norm for DVD. Even titles without extras benefited from giving the movie a much juicier bitrate. More space is always better.