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DVD Forum approves 51GB triple-layer HD DVD spec (Disney votes for it)


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#1 of 34 London Lawson

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Posted November 15 2007 - 03:04 PM

http://www.engadget.....r-hd-dvd-spec/
Toshiba's been demoing a triple-layer hybrid HD DVD / DVD system for a couple years now, but it's been all unofficial until today, when the DVD Forum steering committee voted to approve the spec as part of the official HD DVD standard. The third 15GB layer bumps the total capacity of HD DVD up to 51GB, matching Blu-ray's 50GB disks. Of course, we wouldn't expect to see a flood of content on the new disks anytime soon, what with all those shiny new double-layer players getting sold right now, but it's interesting to see HD DVD step up in the one area Blu-ray was clearly superior. The stalemate continues!

#2 of 34 Sanjay Gupta

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Posted November 15 2007 - 09:42 PM

How dare they, specially considering that no one ever needs more than the holy grail '30 GB' capacity? This is a lawsuit in the making after all this is going to make all existing HD-DVD players obsolete? They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.






PS: Posted Image Sorry guys, just could'nt help myself. After all the jabs taken at Blu-Ray regarding their Profile 1.1 and Profilt 2.0 issues, this seemed like such a juicy target.
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#3 of 34 Binkleywalker

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Posted November 15 2007 - 10:37 PM

Quote:
They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.

This is the vibe I get too when I think of the HD tech minus the obligatory corporation hoodwinking part.

I just feel like this stuff is still so new for me at least, and too soon to invest.

I can sorta see a coporation's side to some degree though - they gotta put out something in order to feel out a demand for it, make more, or make improvements.

#4 of 34 Jonathan Kaye

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Posted November 16 2007 - 12:06 AM

And of course, there's no guarantee that existing players will work with such discs. Forget firmware, I'm talking about the laser's ability to physically read the third layer.

Glad I'm still on the fence for now.Posted Image
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#5 of 34 ReggieW

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Posted November 16 2007 - 06:43 AM

RDjam over at AVS says that all three generations should be able to read the discs with a firmware upgrade. He's yet to spread any false information, but we'll have to see.

Sanjay's analogy with BD profiles versus a higher disc capacity for HD-DVD is a false one.

The Sony profiles require new hardware not just a firmware upgrade. On the other hand, The TL-51 discs "should" play on all Toshiba hardware. The TL-51 will not make existing HD-DVD hardware "obsolete."

None of us will know for certain until Toshiba or one of the other entities involved in the production of the disc issues a press release. I'm predicting that we'll probably witness a full working demo at CES. My understanding is that the TL-51 would not have been approved two days ago if it couldn't be made to operate in legacy players.
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#6 of 34 Jason Seaver

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Posted November 16 2007 - 06:49 AM

That's pretty amazing, if it happens. Toshiba appears to have built a surprisingly robust system.
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#7 of 34 Sanjay Gupta

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Posted November 16 2007 - 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
On the other hand, The TL-51 discs "should" play on all Toshiba hardware. The TL-51 will not make existing HD-DVD hardware "obsolete."
And you know this for sure, how? Common logic suggests that if this really were the case, then the HD-DVD camp would have already highlighted this, since this would be a logical concern to many. Just in case the current players are really capable of reading the 3rd layer, then whoever is responsible for making the press release ought to be fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
None of us will know for certain until Toshiba or one of the other entities involved in the production of the disc issues a press release.
Exactly, since no statements have been made to suggest backward compatibility, the odds for now are at best 50:50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
I'm predicting that we'll probably witness a full working demo at CES.
I really do admire your faith in Toshiba and the optimism that you always display for HD-DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
My understanding is that the TL-51 would not have been approved two days ago if it couldn't be made to operate in legacy players.
What has being approved two days ago got to do with whether TL-51 is backward compatible? That brings me to a hypothetical scenario, what if 2 layers of the TL-51 discs work with, but the 3rd layer cannot be read by the current players, is that considered compatible?

Seriously, if you ask me there would actually be nothing wrong in a format choosing to add new features to the specs even if the new features are not compatible with existing players. Because by this logic technology would always be stuck at some reference point. If the VHS commitee had not allowed HiFi stereo sound to be added the the VHS specs, then we would have remained stuck with linear track quality mono sound forever in VHS. I can state several such examples wherein new features have been added to existing formats, but I am sure everyone gets the point I am trying to make. Dolby Digital/DTS or for that matter digital sound on laser disc are also perfect examples of the same. Mind you in the latter case the new laser discs with digital sound were not compatile with the then current players that could only do analog sound.

Damn, just realized I might actually be defending HD-DVD. What's wrong with me? Excuse me but I need to go get a reality check. Posted Image
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#8 of 34 Stephen_J_H

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Posted November 16 2007 - 02:32 PM

Actually, didn't LDs with DD or DTS carry that track as a bitstream on alternate audio channels more typically used for commentary tracks while an analog track was maintained? This would be similar to VHS continuing to have linear tracks with the AFM track embedded in the same part of the tape as the video signal, albeit at a different azimuth. It's called "backwards compatibility" and is hardly analogous to what's going on here. Technology now is largely software based in the HD realm, what with "firmware" updates and such. Granted, the BD profiles may require additional hardware for decoding such things as additional video streams for PiP capability, but that's hardly the same thing as using software to tell the player that there is a 3rd substrate layer on a disc for it to read. Nothing should have to be physically done to the laser to make it capable of reading the 3rd layer.
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#9 of 34 ReggieW

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Posted November 16 2007 - 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
And you know this for sure, how? Common logic suggests that if this really were the case, then the HD-DVD camp would have already highlighted this, since this would be a logical concern to many. Just in case the current players are really capable of reading the 3rd layer, then whoever is responsible for making the press release ought to be fired.


Exactly, since no statements have been made to suggest backward compatibility, the odds for now are at best 50:50.


I really do admire your faith in Toshiba and the optimism that you always display for HD-DVD.


What has being approved two days ago got to do with whether TL-51 is backward compatible? That brings me to a hypothetical scenario, what if 2 layers of the TL-51 discs work with, but the 3rd layer cannot be read by the current players, is that considered compatible?

Seriously, if you ask me there would actually be nothing wrong in a format choosing to add new features to the specs even if the new features are not compatible with existing players.

Sanjay, why does this have to turn into another war thread? It is obvious that you don't like the HD-DVD format and bash it at every turn, so why do you even care about TL-51 or DL-30 for that matter? The OP linked a story to endgadget and you just had to follow up with a snide remark. I believe the admins have dedicated threads for war talk.

First off, I never said "I knew" anything for sure. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Secondly, you were the one who drew the premature analogy between BD's profile issues (which we know does require a hardware upgrade) to the TL-51 which has yet to be announced publicly by Toshiba. I only stated what I had heard from an insider at AVS, I never said it was gospel. Let's wait and see if these discs are backwards compatible before we make sarcastic statements like:

This is a lawsuit in the making after all this is going to make all existing HD-DVD players obsolete? They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.


With that, Stephen JH has outlined some pretty common logic in his last post.
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#10 of 34 Cees Alons

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Posted November 17 2007 - 03:13 AM

Sanjay, will you please relax a bit?

The HD DVD format getting more bit space on their discs, officially, than BD isn't the end of the world. Even not for you, I suppose.

That goes for anyone else to whom it applies - not only in this one thread!


None of us knows if the existing players will be able to play discs made according to the new specs. But we'll see - when (if) they eventually hit the market.

First it has even to be proven that those discs can be manufactured at all without too much problems (the problems still surrounding the pressing of BD50 are a token of that uncertainty).

No need to get in a (verbal) fight long before that and purely based on the news of the newly accepted specs alone.

Please read the sticky message on top of this subforum: on this forum we will not allow unnecessary format war-talk, except moderately in two designated threads.

And please consider this an official warning. Thanks for understanding.


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#11 of 34 Sanjay Gupta

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Posted November 17 2007 - 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Sanjay, why does this have to turn into another war thread?
First of all I have not turned this into a 'war' thread, although you seem to have taken it as one and seem to want to further it as such. If you were to read my first post again, you will notice that the post was made in jest and the words I chose were only of the same kind of rhetoric that has been posted by yourself and others against Blu-Ray in reference to the profile 1.0/1.1/2.0 issue. Furthermore, if you had paid a bit more attention to my second post, I have actually spoken in favor of HD-DVD and outrightly supported HD-DVDs move to add TL-51 to it's offical specs. Goes to show how much you actually read my post and how much you imagined due to your apparent bias against Blu-Ray and myself.
As far as my dislike for the HD-DVD format is concerned, it is limited only to the fact that it comes in the way of Blu-Ray being accepted as the single HD format. Why Blu-Ray? Simply because 'in my opinion' it is a more 'future proof' format than HD-DVD is and thus in many ways is a more complete' upgrade to the Home Theater experience. If there was no better alternate, I would have absolutely no reservations in adopting HD-DVD. You and/or others may not be aware of the fact that were it not for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD would have stuck to the red laser as was initially proposed by HD-DVD. Similiarly, the credit for Blu-Ray adopting AVC & VC-1 as alternates to MPEG-2 goes to HD-DVD, for in the absence of HD-DVD, Sony for it's own selfish reasons, might have stuck to it's original proposal of MPEG-2 as the sole codec for HD. Thus I suppose in a way some good has come out of the existence of two rival formats. But since Sony had already relented to incorporating the best from the HD-DVD specs even before the launch of either formats, one single format could have been agreed upon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
It is obvious that you don't like the HD-DVD format and bash it at every turn, so why do you even care about TL-51 or DL-30 for that matter? The OP linked a story to endgadget and you just had to follow up with a snide remark.
The very same could be said for yourself and the fact that you don't like Blu-Ray and bash it at every opportunity that you get. Thus, should'nt you also keep your apparent bias for HD-DVD, limited to yourself and to posts that are only HD-DVD related and furthermore refrain from making any posts in response to anything Blu-Ray related.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
First off, I never said "I knew" anything for sure. Please do not put words in my mouth.
I suggest you read your post again.
Quote:
The Sony profiles require new hardware not just a firmware upgrade. On the other hand, The TL-51 discs "should" play on all Toshiba hardware. The TL-51 will not make existing HD-DVD hardware "obsolete."
My comprehension of the English language might be 'poor', considering it is not my first language, but that statement seems to be very clear in it's intent & content, leaving no doubt that all existing HD-DVD players "will" be fully compatible with TL-51. Thus the question of myself, or anyone else putting words in your mouth, does not arise. As a matter of fact, the surety of your statement is further reflected in you prediction regarding a full fledged demo at CES of TL-51 with legacy players.
Quote:
I'm predicting that we'll probably witness a full working demo at CES.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Let's wait and see if these discs are backwards compatible before we make sarcastic statements like:

This is a lawsuit in the making after all this is going to make all existing HD-DVD players obsolete? They should have gotten their act together before they started hoodwinking people into selling them an incomplete technology. No wonder they are giving players away almost for free.
Again, that was said as a joke and the words were basically taken from another thread in which such similiarly inane comments were made regarding Blu-Ray's move to profile 1.1 Obviousy, it seems my sense of humor is not shared by you and for that I apologise. But honestly, that statement was made totally in jest and I expected everyone to see that as such. Never for a moment did I ever feel that there is anything wrong with TL-51 being added to the HD-DVD spec and I most certainly do not feel that this qualifies for a lawsuit.


In closing I'd like to add, that from another situation in another thread it seemed like your posts in response to mine and vice versa were progressively and inadvertantly getting too personal and since it is not in my nature to stoop to that level, I had decided to try and abstain from making any further 'war' like posts. In keeping with that attempt my original post in this thread was never an attack on HD-DVD, but was only what seems to have turned out be an 'obviously poor' attempt at a joke.
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#12 of 34 Sanjay Gupta

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Posted November 17 2007 - 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Sanjay, will you please relax a bit?

The HD DVD format getting more bit space on their discs, officially, than BD isn't the end of the world. Even not for you, I suppose.

That goes for anyone else to whom it applies - not only in this one thread!


None of us knows if the existing players will be able to play discs made according to the new specs. But we'll see - when (if) they eventually hit the market.

First it has even to be proven that those discs can be manufactured at all without too much problems (the problems still surrounding the pressing of BD50 are a token of that uncertainty).

No need to get in a (verbal) fight long before that and purely based on the news of the newly accepted specs alone.

Please read the sticky message on top of this subforum: on this forum we will not allow unnecessary format war-talk, except moderately in two designated threads.

And please consider this an official warning. Thanks for understanding.


Cees
I did not see your post before I made the post above. I know there is a long gap between when you posted and when I did, but the fact is that I had started my reply to ReggieW's post before you made yours. But while I was typing my reponse, some friends arrived to spend the evening together and I left the window open with my incomplete post. After my friends had left and only after I was done with a few other things including watching a movie, sadly in SD on DVD, I returned to my PC and to the unfinished post. It was only after I completed and posted it that I saw and read your post. Thus if you feel there is any material in my previous post that is out of line, please let me know and I shall gladly edit it. Thanks for understanding. I realize your job is not easy and I certainly don't aim to make it any more difficult.

By the way, may I request you to please read my original post again, for you might see that it was only made in jest and not as an attempt to further any 'war' talk, for the purpose of which I am aware that there are two designated threads.
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#13 of 34 Averry

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Posted November 17 2007 - 11:18 AM

I think it's good that they may or may not have the ability to add features to already released product.


It would be preferred that Blu-Ray features could have been implemented on already released players. It seems they couldn't, and the TL51's story hasn't quite been written yet.



For one thing, a Triple Layer would definately be good for tv series. The more shows on one disc the better.
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#14 of 34 Cees Alons

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Posted November 17 2007 - 11:36 AM

Sanjay,

Yes, I reckoned something like that might have happened,
And anyway, I was going to let you keep those closing words. Posted Image
Thanks for your explanation!

But please, no more tit-for-tat in this thread anymore and/or unnecessary comparisons between the two formats (or predictions about their fate).

One format got new specs, this thread tries to concentrate on that news.


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#15 of 34 Nick

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Posted November 17 2007 - 04:22 PM

Does HD-DVD need more than two layers for movies? Two layers should be more than sufficient for movie and special features. I think the space is more for the PC side where it can hold more data. Double layers for the DVD side never really taken the world by storm either. I have nothing but bad luck with dual layers media. Always failed and it's very unreliable. Most newer DVD burner claimed to be able to burn up to 8 times on rewritable but I still haven't seen one single Re-writable media anywhere. It probably exist in the lab only. I think most poeple just want affordable player that's all and with studios taking sides only make matter worse. One good thing came out of this is that it drove the price down a lot faster than anyone expected.

#16 of 34 Manus

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Posted November 17 2007 - 11:24 PM

I sincerely hope that there will not be any more 'threadcrapping' here as I'm sure that this topic will retain its' interest and develop over time as more 'official' announcements are made .

It will be intriguing to see whether this will be a firmware upgrade bonus on HD players in the future . Absolutely no more need for combos then if it is Posted Image

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#17 of 34 ppltd

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Posted November 19 2007 - 05:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
And you know this for sure, how? Common logic suggests that if this really were the case, then the HD-DVD camp would have already highlighted this, since this would be a logical concern to many. Just in case the current players are really capable of reading the 3rd layer, then whoever is responsible for making the press release ought to be fired.
The reading of the third layer is simply a matter of refocusing the laser, which is a software driven. Whether older players will be able to read them, I guess we will see when the disk hits the market (if it does).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
Exactly, since no statements have been made to suggest backward compatibility, the odds for now are at best 50:50.
I think the odds are probably much higher than 50:50. But as we will probably not see a 51 GB dick for the forseeable future, there is alot of time for Toshiba to test this. On a positive note, at least there is only on Manufacturer of HD DVD drives. That should make the testing that much easier.
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#18 of 34 ppltd

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Posted November 19 2007 - 05:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
Does HD-DVD need more than two layers for movies? Two layers should be more than sufficient for movie and special features.
As a rule of thumb, no it does not. I some cases, albeit few, a second disk for the movie would be required (I.E. Extended Editions of LOTR). What it does do is add flexibility for the studios to be able to create Special Editions on a single disk, instead of two. In that way, a 51 GB disk would have advantages over a 30 GB.
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#19 of 34 Steve Schaffer

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Posted November 19 2007 - 08:48 AM

Since one of the selling points of HD DVD has been forward compatibility via firmware update of all existing players it would be foolish to release triple layer discs if they are unusable on existing players.

One scenario if these were unusable with existing players would be if the triple layer discs would be solely for data storage on computers with HD DVD drives, not for movies.
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#20 of 34 Grant H

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Posted November 19 2007 - 09:01 AM

Even Toshiba had admitted before they were unsure whether they'd be backwards-compatible, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions.

Even if they are, who's to say the reliability will even be as good as the combo discs. Going beyond 2 layers always seems to wreak havoc.

As far as movies go, though, we all saw a big difference when dual-layer discs became the norm for DVD. Even titles without extras benefited from giving the movie a much juicier bitrate. More space is always better.
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