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Still steamed about the "new" receivers...more reasons:


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#1 of 13 OFFLINE   mastermaybe

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Posted November 15 2007 - 01:40 AM

I've vented before, now here I go again.

So I bought a new sony xbr4 tv and now I thought i was finally ready to make the jump for a new receiver to utilize the new HD audio formats. Looking to integrate my audio with my video, the Sony ES line of receivers has moved in line with the onkyo 705 and denon 888 I've been considering.

Of course, there are significant hurdles (unnecessarily, in my opinion) with the es:

1. I know 1.3 hdmi doesn't seem to matter to many at this point becasue we dont yet have nething in deep color, the new HD audio formats can be sent PCM, etc. But it matters to ME. I think the mindset that because deep color is not currently being utilized (or maybe even in the next 12 mos) therefore u shouldnt be concerned about it is absurd.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't buy new receivers every 2 years. And while I'm not looking to "future proof" myself for ten, I would like to put myself in good shape for the next 4-5, and in that vein, I haven't read ANYTHING suggesting that deep color will not be in use within that time frame.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't make such a fuss over this kind of thing, but 1.3 hdmi is not exactly re-inventing the wheel. Onkyo has it on their new line and it's at least 6 mos older than sony. Just another pain in the *ss, that's all.

Second, the lack of the new lossless processing (dolby HD, DTS-HD) in a "new" $700-$1000 receiver is simply unacceptable to me at this point. Here's why:

While its great that most of the "new" receivers will accept the new formats via PCM, the incoming reality (already approaching, btw) is that the newer units (the HD PLAYERS) seem to be moving towards bitstream output (not sure why we ever strayed from this method anyway, seeing that's how its been done for as long as I can remember in the home theater game) which of course will render your brand new unit useless as far as the new codecs go.

What a nightmare indeed if you plunk 800 bucks down on "new" technology (the receiver) only to find out that you have to purchase "old" technology (an older HS player that outputs PCM) to play the "new" technology codecs (the HD audio, again).

I find this whole scenario to be unbelievably frustrating and destructive for the consumer. I pity the poor saps who don't follow this crap close enough to avoid this very plausible kick in the *uts.

Someone here please tell me I'm crazy and just buy the onkyo 705 to relieve my heartburn. Man I'm pissed about the sony...it would have been perfect!!!!

thanks,
james

#2 of 13 OFFLINE   Chris Maynard

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Posted November 15 2007 - 03:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe

While its great that most of the "new" receivers will accept the new formats via PCM, the incoming reality (already approaching, btw) is that the newer units (the HD PLAYERS) seem to be moving towards bitstream output (not sure why we ever strayed from this method anyway, seeing that's how its been done for as long as I can remember in the home theater game) which of course will render your brand new unit useless as far as the new codecs go.


Incorrect.
I did nothing...I did absolutely nothing and it was everything I thought it could be..

#3 of 13 OFFLINE   Echo42987

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Posted November 15 2007 - 03:48 AM

I don't believe bitstream is going to be the way there going back to. I think they are actually pulling away from that using these new audio formats such as TrueHD and DTS-HD.

Go purchase the Onkyo 705 and you should be fine for years to come and if you truly wanted to utilize the new "Deep Color" you should've gotten a Pioneer Elite that has the new Kuro panels.

-Nick-
Home Theater Setup
TV - Sony KDS60A3000
Reciever - Denon AVR2308CI
DVD - Denon DVD1940CI
Fronts - Canton GLE409Center - Canton AV7002Rears - Canton PLUSXL2Sub - Klipsch RW10DPower - Panamax M5300PMCables - AudioQuestGame - Xbox360-PS2/3

#4 of 13 OFFLINE   mastermaybe

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Posted November 16 2007 - 01:30 AM

accoring to what i've read (from sony and others) my new xbr will be able to utilize deep color (it already does with sony hd home recorders, which I'm going to try out this weekend)


As far as the "incorrect" response goes, I guess that sounds matter of fact, and sexy, but I'll believe it when see it (or "not see it" in this case). If manufacturers have the oppurtunity to produce players that do not require the internal decoders that will already be offered on most receivers (and rest assured, that will be the case within 12-18 mos) you better believe that they"ll do it to cut costs.

Further, while I understand the advantages of outputting via pcm and even the "requirements" set in place by the technology companies (DOLBY/DTS), those "requirements"/specs are changed and manipulated all the time within every industry known to man as soon as there becomes a better (read: PROFITABLE) way to re-invent the wheel.

While I sincerely hope I'm wrong and you're right (for the sake of everyone) I have an ill-feeling otherwise.

james

#5 of 13 OFFLINE   mastermaybe

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Posted November 16 2007 - 01:36 AM

Lastly, if we all seem so sure about THEM sticking with player decoding and pcm output, why are we even wasting time and money by sticking the processing in the receivers/processors to begin with? I mean where else are u going to be receiving this audio from that would require it, when your hd player, ps3 and satellite/cable (surely, they will internalize too??!!!) already conduct the processing internally? more bs.

#6 of 13 OFFLINE   Echo42987

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Posted November 16 2007 - 04:17 AM

Even though the DVD player will output in a PCM format it's not actually doing all the decoding. When the signal is sent into the reciever that is where it is decoded and sent out. It's not like a pass through unit so those features will still be needed inside of your reciever.

-Nick-
Home Theater Setup
TV - Sony KDS60A3000
Reciever - Denon AVR2308CI
DVD - Denon DVD1940CI
Fronts - Canton GLE409Center - Canton AV7002Rears - Canton PLUSXL2Sub - Klipsch RW10DPower - Panamax M5300PMCables - AudioQuestGame - Xbox360-PS2/3

#7 of 13 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted November 16 2007 - 06:51 AM

Playing devil's advocate here:

* the HD disc formats will probably only be popular among fervent HT enthusiasts for the next few years

* pricing for audio gear is extremely competitive these days

* the popularity of audio gear itself has been on a nasty downhill slide for the past 5 years, so anything that makes gear more expensive is heavily scrutinised.

Seeing all this a receiver manufacturer would have to ask himself, is it worth it to equip all their receivers with the decoders - along with their licensing fees - for all those different audio codecs? If I was one of those people, I would immediately say no.

And if I was a consumer in the market for a new $200 to $700 A/V receiver, but wasn't planning on adopting either of the HD formats, and saw that all of them had built-in DD++, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master yada yada decoders I would be irritated thinking that I'm paying for something I'll never use. Why not make the adopters of those hi-res audio formats pay for the decoders i.e. keep the decoders in the players that the HD fans buy? This could be a make-or-break decision point for many people.

#8 of 13 OFFLINE   mastermaybe

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Posted November 16 2007 - 07:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceJ
Playing devil's advocate here:

* the HD disc formats will probably only be popular among fervent HT enthusiasts for the next few years

* pricing for audio gear is extremely competitive these days

* the popularity of audio gear itself has been on a nasty downhill slide for the past 5 years, so anything that makes gear more expensive is heavily scrutinised.

Seeing all this a receiver manufacturer would have to ask himself, is it worth it to equip all their receivers with the decoders - along with their licensing fees - for all those different audio codecs? If I was one of those people, I would immediately say no.

And if I was a consumer in the market for a new $200 to $700 A/V receiver, but wasn't planning on adopting either of the HD formats, and saw that all of them had built-in DD++, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master yada yada decoders I would be irritated thinking that I'm paying for something I'll never use. Why not make the adopters of those hi-res audio formats pay for the decoders i.e. keep the decoders in the players that the HD fans buy? This could be a make-or-break decision point for many people.

while i understand your point regarding the notion that some consumers may not want to pay lor the latest hi-def decoders, I find it to be unrealistic in the real world for the bulk of people who are looking at purchasing them (new receivers).

Of course most consumers are going to want the latest technology if possible when they purchase a new component (especially seeing that the majority of them looking into multi channel receivers are looking to purchase them SPECIFICALLY for movie playback...why would they wish otherwise?

Besides, anyone serious about music-only playback certainly isn't looking to spend their cash on a $700 multichannel recevier.

Further, while I agree with you that the industry in general has dipped in the last 5 years, I think many are underestimating the publics interest in hdtv and the home theater experience. I expect to see both enjoy a VERY healthy holiday season, which will only spur future growth. I guess we'll see in the coming months.

Lastly, as far as the receiver needing to be around for additional "decoding"...I"m not sure what you're getting at here, but the only thing a receiver needs to be able to do with a properly "decoded" HD PCM signal from a player is be able to accept it in multi-channel form. That's why its not imperative that your receiver posesses either of the new hd processors or 1.3 hdmi...as long as it can accept the pcm from a player, you're fine.

again, the potential problem arises with someone who thinks they're in good shape by purchasing a new receiver with hdmi and then finding out that the hd player they purchase down the road DOES NOT output the HD's in PCM and then they're SOL. I realize many people feel this will not happen, and there inlies my contention...I feel that it is very much a possibiltiy with future components. People in the know will be fine, others will be screwed.

I'm going to ensure that I will not fall into the latter group.

james

#9 of 13 OFFLINE   Michael Reuben

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Posted November 16 2007 - 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe
People in the know will be fine, others will be screwed.
That is usually the case with any piece of sophisticated technology. It's also a reason why forums like this were created.

I've read this thread at several stages of its evolution, and frankly I just don't see the problem. If a receiver doesn't have the feature set you think it should, don't buy it. If the feature set doesn't yet exist at what you think is the right price point, wait. And if your concern is that standards are too much in flux right now -- a legitimate concern, IMO -- join the legion of folks watching from the sidelines and waiting for the dust to settle.

It's not like you have nothing to watch or listen to in the meantime. Posted Image

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#10 of 13 OFFLINE   Echo42987

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Posted November 16 2007 - 10:20 AM

^^^Agreed

-Nick-
Home Theater Setup
TV - Sony KDS60A3000
Reciever - Denon AVR2308CI
DVD - Denon DVD1940CI
Fronts - Canton GLE409Center - Canton AV7002Rears - Canton PLUSXL2Sub - Klipsch RW10DPower - Panamax M5300PMCables - AudioQuestGame - Xbox360-PS2/3

#11 of 13 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted November 16 2007 - 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe
Lastly, as far as the receiver needing to be around for additional "decoding"...I"m not sure what you're getting at here, but the only thing a receiver needs to be able to do with a properly "decoded" HD PCM signal from a player is be able to accept it in multi-channel form. That's why its not imperative that your receiver posesses either of the new hd processors or 1.3 hdmi...as long as it can accept the pcm from a player, you're fine.
sorry, I thought you were pushing for all receivers to INCLUDE decoders for those various formats.

Quote:
the potential problem arises with someone who thinks they're in good shape by purchasing a new receiver with hdmi and then finding out that the hd player they purchase down the road DOES NOT output the HD's in PCM and then they're SOL.
As far as a player sending only bitstreams via HDMI i.e. no PCM, I doubt that will happen because of the reasons I wrote about above.

#12 of 13 OFFLINE   mastermaybe

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Posted November 18 2007 - 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
That is usually the case with any piece of sophisticated technology. It's also a reason why forums like this were created.

I've read this thread at several stages of its evolution, and frankly I just don't see the problem. If a receiver doesn't have the feature set you think it should, don't buy it. If the feature set doesn't yet exist at what you think is the right price point, wait. And if your concern is that standards are too much in flux right now -- a legitimate concern, IMO -- join the legion of folks watching from the sidelines and waiting for the dust to settle.

It's not like you have nothing to watch or listen to in the meantime. Posted Image

M.


Michael- In the end, I have to agree with you....it's just very disappointing to me that the "smart" move STILL at this point is to wait.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that, like any other industry, evolution is the rule and not the exception in the A/V world. That said, I've been on and off in this game for nearly 20 years and haven't seen crap quite like this in a long time ( I believe it's WORSE than the HD format war, btw- THAT I can wait out- or, just get a 200 dollar HD player NOW and see what happens).

Given my above contentions, I essentially have ONE choice right now in the under $1000 category, and that's the onkyo...hardly a choice from any reasonable perspective.


My point more largely has to do with the general public, who will undoubtedly follow a friday's afternoon worth of reading, or worse, a misguided salesperson and spend a considerable amount of money thinking they're a lock for HD sound when the reality is that they're anything but at this point.

Some would say that's THEIR problem, and I guess it is. But, I continue to be frustrated by this issue which has needlessly been made more complicated by manufacturers that damn-well know better.

I guess the answers around it are easy if you know them, problem is, even if you do, you could still get burned...and that's just flat-out wrong.

I appreciate everyone's perspective though, and we've all raised valid points.
I'm sure that I'm making a bigger deal out of this than what's warranted, but it's really frustrating me at the moment.

respect and thanks,

james

#13 of 13 OFFLINE   Rogozhin

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Posted November 23 2007 - 02:45 PM

If you are all planning this much about a receiver upgrade then I hope you're seriously contemplating peak oil.

Posted Image

Get the Onkyo OP.

Rogo
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