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Batman Begins & Matrix - How come these are on HD and not Blu-ray?


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#21 of 72 Brandon Conway

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Posted November 11 2007 - 05:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
I'll see if I can create a list of WB HD titles not on BR yet.

I'll port over mine from the other thread:

With IME

Batman Begins
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Constantine
The Dukes of Hazzard
The Matrix Trilogy
Poseidon
Smallville - Season 5 (IME on 1st episode)
Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines (Scheduled for release on 12/18/07)
Troy (Theatrical Cut)
V for Vendetta

Without IME

The Adventures of Robin Hood
Caddyshack
Casablanca
Excalibur
Forbidden Planet
Grand Prix
Mutiny on the Bounty (1962)
The Perfect Storm
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory

That's 10 IME releases (8 if you don't count T3 and Troy, as the Director's Cut of the latter was recently released), and 9 non-IME releases, for a total of 19 (or 17).

"And now the reprimand, from an American critic. He reproaches me for using film as a sacred & lasting medium, like a painting or a book. He does not believe that filmmaking is an inferior art, but he believes, and quite rightly, that a reel goes quickly, that the public are looking above all for relaxation, that film is fragile and that it is pretentious to express the power of one's soul by such ephemeral and delicate means, that Charlie Chaplin's or Buster Keaton's first films can only be seen on very rare and badly spoiled prints. I add that the cinema is making daily progress and that eventually films that we consider marvelous today will soon be forgotten because of new dimensions & colour. This is true. But for 4 weeks this film [The Blood of a Poet] has been shown to audiences that have been so attentive, so eager & so warm, that I wonder after all there is not an anonymous public who are looking for more than relaxation in the cinema." - Jean Cocteau, 1932


#22 of 72 RobertR

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Posted November 11 2007 - 06:29 AM

Quote:
I need forbidden Planet, and both Wonka movies. BAD!
(Wondering how long David is going to wait for those movies to come out on BR).

#23 of 72 Shane Martin

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Posted November 11 2007 - 07:08 AM

Robert,
To your point and a little more, I don't think it's BR's fault or their installed base rather I don't believe they sold well on HD DVD either. I don't think you can totally point to a game console as the primary player being the only issue.

#24 of 72 Averry

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Posted November 11 2007 - 07:11 AM

Very few if any of Warners discs have had a big margin. At least from what I've seen.




We are Marshall and Planet Earth both outsold on HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.


2001 was like 3,800 to 2,700 or somethign close like that. The departed was nothign like a 2:1 margin, and 300 WAS a big margin, which also gives relevance to the big VIDEO GAME demographic.

So, the only Blu-Ray discs that DO outsell HD-DVD on a wide scale are in fact the video game demographic movies. Blu-Ray has consitently outsold HD-DVD, but on odd demographic titles it's allways far closer.
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#25 of 72 DaViD Boulet

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Posted November 11 2007 - 07:48 AM

Quote:
Why is the concept of Blu-ray market realities so controversial here? I'm not directing this at you, Shane, but at some of the previous comments. I quoted your comment as it simply and eloquently gets to the heart of the problem some (all?) studios have with the Blu-ray format. When 95% of a format's installed hardware base is a game console, it does not take a marketing genius to figure out what types of movies sell on that format and what does not. I feel confident that Warner has released enough titles on Blu-ray and HD DVD to have a good understanding of both markets. If Warner has continued to NOT put certain titles on Blu-ray that they have on HD DVD, and IME is obviously not the impediment, well, is that so hard to figure out.

The best selling HD DVD to-date is Transformers. Were you aware that the HD DVD add-on for the 360 game-console consitutes a larger install-base of HD DVD-players that the Toshiba stand-alones? If so, then perhaps the HD DVD market isn't that much different than the "market" you describe above.

Regarding the PS3 question: Given the paucity of games right now, it's also clear that many PS3s were purchased primarily for BD use as it's the ONLY BD player available that offers ethernet connectivity for updates and future 2.0 upgradeability. That's why I bought it. That's why my friend bought it. That's why many people bought it. There's nothing "obvious" about most BD-consumers being gamers given that the PS3 out-performs most standalones given its price and so many tech-savvy consumers, like me, bought it for its BD-movie-price-performance ratio alone.

Quote:
So, the only Blu-Ray discs that DO outsell HD-DVD on a wide scale are in fact the video game demographic movies. Blu-Ray has consitently outsold HD-DVD, but on odd demographic titles it's allways far closer.

This seems like a more even-handed way to state the concept. Note that even if this paradigm was in place, Warner would still achieve higher sales of all of these delayed BD titles on BD over current sales on HD DVD.

I'll still find it curious that the highest-selling HD DVD title to date is Transformers, given it's obvious appeal to the gaming-consumer (more so that 300 I'd think).
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#26 of 72 RobertR

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Posted November 11 2007 - 08:00 AM

Quote:
The best selling HD DVD to-date is Transformers. Were you aware that the HD DVD add-on for the 360 game-console consitutes a larger install-base of HD DVD-players that the Toshiba stand-alones?
How does the ratio of 360 add-ons to HD set tops compare to the ratio of PS3s to BR set tops? Isn't it a much lower number?

Quote:
Regarding the PS3 question: Given the paucity of games right now, it's also clear that many PS3s were purchased primarily for BD use
How much is "many"? Shouldn't BR software sales be MUCH higher if it's a high number as you suggest? Also, weren't millions of PS3s sold on the PROMISE (even if they haven't materialized a year later) prior to and at introduction of kick-ass games that were going to blow away the competition?

#27 of 72 Robert George

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Posted November 11 2007 - 08:24 AM

Quote:
The best selling HD DVD to-date is Transformers. Were you aware that the HD DVD add-on for the 360 game-console consitutes a larger install-base of HD DVD-players that the Toshiba stand-alones? If so, then perhaps the HD DVD market isn't that much different than the "market" you describe above.

First, you are going to have to provide some real data showing more 360 drives than standalone players for HD DVD. The latest reports put HD DVD standalone sales well over 400,00 with industry estimates that that number could exceed 500,000 by the end of this month. I seriously doubt X-Box add-ons have sold a half a million.

That point aside, comparing X-Box add-on market to PS3 is flawed as the average buyer of the X-Box HD DVD drive is a person with a direct interest in movies, and specifically, movies in HD. Conversely, I have read articles that estimate as few as 10% of all PS3s are used for movie watching on a regular basis. 100% of X-Box ad-on buyers watch movies regularly on their machine while, let's say 10% to 15% of PS3 buyers use their machine for Blu-ray movies regularly.

These numbers are not new, nor is this topic. Do you refuse to listen, or refuse to accept the data?

#28 of 72 Robert George

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Posted November 11 2007 - 08:29 AM

Quote:
I'll still find it curious that the highest-selling HD DVD title to date is Transformers, given it's obvious appeal to the gaming-consumer (more so that 300 I'd think).

Really? You find it curious that the movie that is the best selling DVD of the year is also the best selling HD DVD?

I find it curious that you find that curious.

#29 of 72 DaViD Boulet

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:12 AM

Hey Robert,

just how many posts does it take to respond to my one?

Posted Image

Oh, it was actually microsoft who said that more 360 add-ons had sold than stand-alones (of either format). I'll try to find that.

Quote:
How much is "many"? Shouldn't BR software sales be MUCH higher if it's a high number as you suggest? Also, weren't millions of PS3s sold on the PROMISE (even if they haven't materialized a year later) prior to and at introduction of kick-ass games that were going to blow away the competition?

The exact ratio cannot be determined, though I agree it would be a valuable figure which would be very telling. No survey has been conducted by Sony and even if they put a questionaire on the warrantee card of the PS3 (which they didn't at least when I bought mine) not everyone fills out their card and not everyone would bother to answer so it would be a biased (non-random) sampling.

However, despite the difficulty in coming to an exact number, it's certain that a good number of PS3s were, infact, purchased as "movie" players given that most of the users on this forum (and AVS) did just that.


Quote:
Really? You find it curious that the movie that is the best selling DVD of the year is also the best selling HD DVD?

I find it curious that you find that curious.

It's curious only if, as you've stated before, the "market" for HD DVD was mature/adult viewers who have tastes that gear towards classic films etc. (ie, the kind of films that wouldn't appeal to the BD crowd, as you've suggested).

Just because more teen and young adults have purchased a DVD of a certain title doesn't imply anything towards HD DVD sales if those same consumers don't also own HD DVD hardware. And if that is the crowd with HD DVD hardware as the Transformers sales suggest, then that crowd isn't much different than the BD crowd after all (what I was suggesting by my use of the term "curious").
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#30 of 72 RobertR

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:31 AM

Quote:
The exact ratio cannot be determined
I'd say BR sales compared to the number of PS3s sold give us a good idea, though, and if one looks at that, it's rather obvious that BR sales represent a small fraction of total PS3 sales.

#31 of 72 DaViD Boulet

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:33 AM

Yes, clearly the majority of PS3s sold aren't being used exclusively for BD movie playback. But even a small percentage of a big number (total PS3 sales) is a good chunk of the BD movie-playing market (ie, a good number compared to the ratio of stand-alone BD players sold).
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#32 of 72 PeterMano

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George
Why is the concept of Blu-ray market realities so controversial here? I'm not directing this at you, Shane, but at some of the previous comments. I quoted your comment as it simply and eloquently gets to the heart of the problem some (all?) studios have with the Blu-ray format. When 95% of a format's installed hardware base is a game console, it does not take a marketing genius to figure out what types of movies sell on that format and what does not. I feel confident that Warner has released enough titles on Blu-ray and HD DVD to have a good understanding of both markets. If Warner has continued to NOT put certain titles on Blu-ray that they have on HD DVD, and IME is obviously not the impediment, well, is that so hard to figure out.

Xbots deride the ps3 as an inferior games console and as a glorified bluray player. Hd dvd zealots proclaim the ps3 as a game console. You guys need to get together and clarify your attack strategies.

The question should be, is the ps3 a viable bluray player. The answer is yes, its a very capable bluray player. The whole terminology used by Toshiba is crap, referring to their players as standalone units. The ps3 stands alone, so what's their point. I could turn around and dub their players highly limited consumer electronics devices capable of doing one thing only.

And also, your comment about it doesn't take a genius to figure out what type of movie would sell to a ps3 buyer. Funny, really, Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, Matrix Trilogy, T3, sorry, but all those films would definitely appeal to a gamer type. Yeah, Transformers and Shrek would do absolutely terrible on the ps3 as well, I suppose. Small wonder that Toshiba was so anxious to keep those titles off the ps3, they coughed up $150mil for "marketing considerations."

This format war is likely to stand as it is for a long time. Paramount and Dreamworks took the money, because they figured whatever bluray sales they gave up they would just pick up on dvd. Likewise, there is no reason for bluray studios to alter their stance for the exact same reason.

#33 of 72 Robert George

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:44 AM

Quote:
My point about "curious" was that, in fact, it's clear that HD DVD is selling just as much to a young "gamer" crowd as BD. If we'll use 300's sales to suggest the market that BD is satisfying, then Transformers sales figures suggest that the market buying HD DVD isn't too much different...

That makes it a bit clearer. I now have a better understanding why you are so consistently wrong. You only look at the data that supports your predisposed opinion. You are basing your assessment of the HD DVD market on a single title. Logic dictates that a more complete picture can be formed by looking at all the data available, THEN forming an opinion. You, on the other hand, have an opinion THEN look for data to support it.

Kinda like you have such strongly held opinions on the various audio codecs on both formats without having the ability to actually hear and compare them properly.

#34 of 72 Dave Moritz

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:44 AM

Troy (Theatrical Cut) is actually on Blu-ray allready. Posted Image

I would have loved to see them on the Blu-ray platform. But since I allready own them on HD-DVD and since they look awsum I will most likely not be buying them again. At least until 4k super HD comes out, LMAO. Posted Image
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#35 of 72 ReggieW

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:51 AM

I believe Warner will slowly start releasing the MIA BD titles slowly as the market grows. I believe that we'll likely see the IME enhanced films before they release many of the classics, due partly to the fact that they generally haven't sold that well on either format.

I would like to see more catalog titles from all studios, but given the dismal sales numbers of major titles like 2001: A Space Odyssey on both formats, it's any wonder that we're getting anything at all. I do applaud Warner for giving us what we've gotten so far, becasue they've been the ONLY studio so far who has released some solid catalog titles we all really want, while Universal for example, is giving us stuff like Mobsters and Cool As Ice.
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#36 of 72 Robert George

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Posted November 11 2007 - 09:58 AM

Hmmm.

I said...

"Warner has continued to NOT put certain titles on Blu-ray that they have on HD DVD, and IME is obviously not the impediment, well, is that so hard to figure out."

To which was replied...

"And also, your comment about it doesn't take a genius to figure out what type of movie would sell to a ps3 buyer. Funny, really, Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, Matrix Trilogy, T3, sorry, but all those films would definitely appeal to a gamer type."

I take it that you don't know a great deal about HD DVD, and that you completely missed/don't understand the whole "IME" thing? I'll point out to you that this issue is a little more complex from the studio's perspective than you seem to think it is. Warner has, in fact, two main concerns where Blu-ray releases are involved. The Blu-ray demographic is only one. The other is technical. All the titles you listed contain the interactivity available on HD DVD but not available on Blu-ray. Warner has publicly stated they prefer to not release these titles on Blu-ray until the technology supports the same features that are available on HD DVD.

As to the demographic issue, you may ask why Grand Prix or Casablanca are not on Blu-ray when they do not have IME on HD DVD. The answer is, when one considered the entire installed base of all Blu-ray players, only a fraction of that number are the type of movie fan that would be interested in films like these. With the additional cost of BD production, a very small number of sales, hence, discs produced, can actually be unprofitable for a studio.

#37 of 72 Paul Arnette

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Posted November 11 2007 - 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
But this one has not deteriorated into a format war p!$$ing match yet.

OK. How about now? Posted Image
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#38 of 72 DaViD Boulet

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Posted November 11 2007 - 10:25 AM

Quote:
That makes it a bit clearer. I now have a better understanding why you are so consistently wrong. You only look at the data that supports your predisposed opinion. You are basing your assessment of the HD DVD market on a single title. Logic dictates that a more complete picture can be formed by looking at all the data available, THEN forming an opinion. You, on the other hand, have an opinion THEN look for data to support it.

Kinda like you have such strongly held opinions on the various audio codecs on both formats without having the ability to actually hear and compare them properly.

Robert,

Earlier we were discussing subject matter germane to this thread. We disagreed and beleived each other to be in error in a respectful manner. However, this most recent post appears to take on the flavor of a personal attack... trying to negate my opinion by making statements about me personally.

Care to revise/edit your post or should I ask the mods to do so for you?


Quote:
You are basing your assessment of the HD DVD market on a single title.
Just like the case for how the BD market is weighted to "gamers" is constantly supported by sales of 300. My point wasn't that one title can be used at a definitive litmus test (I agree that it can't). My point was that if it's fair to suggest trends with 300 (as has been done by several in this thread), then why not with Transformers? And if we see projections based on reading those sales figures that don't jive with other information we have about HD consumers, then we should apply the same broader view equally to BD as well.

I agree that the market is complex and resists being oversimplified. I thought that message could be read between my lines but I was probably too subtle/vague.
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#39 of 72 George_W_K

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Posted November 11 2007 - 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
OK. How about now? Posted Image
Posted Image Posted Image

#40 of 72 Robert George

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Posted November 11 2007 - 11:45 AM

Quote:
OK. How about now?

Are some of you so defensive/insecure that you can't even hold a conversation that includes both formats?

Quote:
Care to revise/edit your post or should I ask the mods to do so for you?

Nevermind.


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