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Bones season 3 thread


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#121 of 133 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

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Posted May 27 2008 - 07:48 AM

BONES creator speaks out about Zack:

Exclusive Bones news from series creator Hart Hanson - TV Matt'rs | TVGuide.com

Here's the one thing that I will always feel was a mistake and a disservice to the character and the audience:

Quote:
TVGuide.com:
Some have speculated that the strike-shortened season chipped away at what could have been a better build-up to the Gormogon arc, laying the foundation for Zack's motivation — such as post-traumatic stress.
Hart Hanson:
That's very good, yes. Initially the plan — and things go through so many iterations — was that we would find that Zack was either the apprentice to the Gormogon, or that he was approached by the Gormogon, rebuffed the offer, and then was killed. Any number of scenarios were explored. But coming back from the strike, we only had two episodes to set things up, and this presented the maximum bang for our buck — "Let's shock everyone" — and that seems to have worked to an extent. I am delighted for our show, and for Eric Millegan, that some people are furious.

He's happy people are talking about the show and are upset, but doesn't care that people are basically saying what he did was a poor decision, going for nothing more than shock value and shortchanging the viewers.

At the very least, Zack will be on the show from time to time.

#122 of 133 OFFLINE   Chip_HT

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Posted May 29 2008 - 07:31 AM

At least that explains when the episodes were made in reference to the strike.

But I still think they should've had a Gormogon episode planned for February or so, which would have fallen within the first four "post-strike" episodes.

The two hour premiere in London sounds good.

#123 of 133 OFFLINE   Joseph DeMartino

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Posted June 07 2008 - 12:28 PM

I think this season is going to play a lot better in retrospect. I just watched the rerun of the season opener, which introduced Gormagon and featured Zack's return from Iraq, and it is clear that they were already laying the groundwork for some kind of trouble ahead for Zack.

First we are reminded that Zack finally convinced himself to go to Iraq after Booth encouraged him to do so. Zack is a weak personality who compares himself to alpha males like Booth and even Hodgens (who compared to Zack is an alpha male.)

Then we learn that Zack was sent home by an Army shrink, because he wasn't assimiliating and was a liability to his team. Finally we find out that the same Army shrink told him that he needed to figure out why the Jeffersonian was the only place he fit it.

So Zack returns feeling like a failure, disoriented and even questioning his connection to the Jeffersonian and how healthy that is. In this mental state the very first case he encounters is that of the Gormagon - which everyone thinks is closed until Zack proves that there was a second killer involved. The killer is clearly brilliant, having managed to create the contents of the vault and somehow arrange the death (suicide or murder) of his apprentice in prison.

Zack is extremely vulnerable and the ideal candidate to become the second half of a serial killer combo. (Compare Anthony Buono and Ken Bianchi - the Hillside stranglers, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng and Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris, who tape-recorded their final victims screams as they tortured her to death in their specially-equipped murder van. All followed the same pattern of dominant senior partner and junior wannbe follower. So, for that matter, did killer duos like the Columbine High School killers and the D.C. snipers.)

I think we're going to see more clues in Zack's behavior as the season that plays out that were always there, but not visible except in light of the finale.

Regards,

Joe

#124 of 133 OFFLINE   KevinGress

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Posted June 09 2008 - 06:29 AM

I dunno; I don't think that's good enough for me. People can point to when Zach got back (being discharged, etc.) and they can point to the episode where he 'attacked' the melon and telling Hodgins that he was more a 'man of action' now, but it still rings hollow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
First we are reminded that Zack finally convinced himself to go to Iraq after Booth encouraged him to do so. Zack is a weak personality who compares himself to alpha males like Booth and even Hodgens (who compared to Zack is an alpha male.)


Booth didn't encourage him, he simply didn't discourage him. Zach had already decided to go, and was asking Booth about what to expect; and asking him to explain as he knew more about honor and valor than anyone Zach knew.

I agree that Zach has a weak personality, and that he defers to Brennan and Booth - but that's where the problem, for me, lies. Zach would not act against the one person that he looks so much up to, without at least somehow talking to her about it.

It may have been more palatable (pun intended) if Gormogon/Master had been in Iraq with Zach, as another consultant, etc. And had spent the 4 months or so completely breaking down Zach's psyche - without Brennan being there. It'd be more believeable because Zach wouldn't have Brennan to bounce Gormogon's ideas of of, to see what she thought (if she'd approve). What we're given is Zach, already on the case, and seeing Brennan's reactions to Gormogon/Master's work (negative), being approached by said, and completely falling for it in 2 months' time. It just doesn't track, and as Nicholas posted, smacks of going just for shock value.

Or, another way to go would have been Gormogon essentially blackmailing Zach into providing a diversion so he could get the statue, with the excuse that any of the team, Brennan, Angela, or Hodgins, would be the next victim, if Zach didn't cooperate. His hands are completely mangled right now, and he would need months of surgeries and rehabiliation - excuse enough for him to not be on the show - then later on in the season, we could see Zach either deciding to go home to Michigan, or perhaps showing some social growth and having met up with a woman, and deciding to leave with her.

I know all of this is reaching, but I like Bones because of the characters. I'd like to continue to think of each of the team as heroes, and not having to think that ultimately one of them is basically a punk because he became a murderer.

#125 of 133 OFFLINE   Joseph DeMartino

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Posted June 09 2008 - 07:08 AM

Quote:
Zach would not act against the one person that he looks so much up to, without at least somehow talking to her about it.

But that's the point. Zach is so rational - irrantionally rational, if I can put it that way - that he would join up with Gormagon and do whatever that entailed provided he was given sufficiently logical and convincing proof that Gormagon's worldview was true. (Because if that worldview is true, then killing people, eating their flesh and building the statue of the widow's son out of human bones are acts that make sense and are completely justified.) And up until the end, Zach wasn't really called up to act against Booth or Brennan or any of the rest of the team. He had to do whatever was required to prevent their solving the case, but that was a matter of derailing their professional activities, which would have been much easier for him to justify. He wasn't really acting against them personally. When he finally was called upon to do so, by blowing up Hodgens, he couldn't do so and chose to put himself in harm's way instead.

I'm not saying the whole arc was perfect, or that it wasn't damaged by the strike-shortened season. I'm just suggesting that it was less bad than some people have suggested on first viewing, and that it might work a lot better the second time through.

Regards,

Joe

#126 of 133 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

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Posted June 09 2008 - 07:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
I'm not saying the whole arc was perfect, or that it wasn't damaged by the strike-shortened season. I'm just suggesting that it was less bad than some people have suggested on first viewing, and that it might work a lot better the second time through.

That is often what happens when seeing a show time-compressed on DVD where you can watch several episodes in a row, versus once a week and then a hiatus.

It would be interesting to look at how people perceive a show they've only seen on DVD (a blind buy situation) and compare their thoughts to someone who saw it as it first broadcast. I suspect opinions on long story arcs would be pretty unique because of the differences in perspective.

I prefer the broadcasts, only because when you watch a show on DVD you completely lose the sense of anticipation generated by previews for next week's episode, suspenseful cliffhangers lose their suspense because you can just pop the next episode on without waiting a week or months. The overall hype is just gone. All of that is something DVDs will never have, and while that may not matter to some or even most people, it makes shows like this all the better to enjoy.

#127 of 133 OFFLINE   Holadem

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Posted June 09 2008 - 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
I think this season is going to play a lot better in retrospect. I just watched the rerun of the season opener, which introduced Gormagon and featured Zack's return from Iraq, and it is clear that they were already laying the groundwork for some kind of trouble ahead for Zack.

First we are reminded that Zack finally convinced himself to go to Iraq after Booth encouraged him to do so. Zack is a weak personality who compares himself to alpha males like Booth and even Hodgens (who compared to Zack is an alpha male.)

Then we learn that Zack was sent home by an Army shrink, because he wasn't assimiliating and was a liability to his team. Finally we find out that the same Army shrink told him that he needed to figure out why the Jeffersonian was the only place he fit it.

So Zack returns feeling like a failure, disoriented and even questioning his connection to the Jeffersonian and how healthy that is. In this mental state the very first case he encounters is that of the Gormagon - which everyone thinks is closed until Zack proves that there was a second killer involved. The killer is clearly brilliant, having managed to create the contents of the vault and somehow arrange the death (suicide or murder) of his apprentice in prison.

Zack is extremely vulnerable and the ideal candidate to become the second half of a serial killer combo. (Compare Anthony Buono and Ken Bianchi - the Hillside stranglers, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng and Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris, who tape-recorded their final victims screams as they tortured her to death in their specially-equipped murder van. All followed the same pattern of dominant senior partner and junior wannbe follower. So, for that matter, did killer duos like the Columbine High School killers and the D.C. snipers.)

I think we're going to see more clues in Zack's behavior as the season that plays out that were always there, but not visible except in light of the finale.

Regards,

Joe

Eh.

I think you're giving them way too much credit. Nothing about Bones so far has offered evidence of this level of planning/foreshadowing on the part of the creators. Not to mention the kind of complex character work that would require. I enjoy Bones as a light fun show that occasianly relies on pop psychology whose depth does not approach that of the stuff you wrote.

On another note, I was less irked by Zack's guilt than by the fact that it seemd to bother no one (in cast) that Zack killed someone.

I suppose we will be treated to another loving "trial" next season? Posted Image

--
H

#128 of 133 OFFLINE   Joseph DeMartino

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Posted June 09 2008 - 08:22 AM

Quote:
Nothing about Bones so far has offered evidence of this level of planning/foreshadowing on the part of the creators.

Except the foreshadowing already noted in the opening episode of the season. Posted Image

Quote:
I suppose we will be treated to another loving "trial" next season? Posted Image

Nope, Zack has already pled out. He traded information leading to the Gormagon for commitment to a secure mental institution instead of Federal prison. And since the Gormagon committed suicide-by-cop, he won't be tired. Case closed.

Regards,

Joe

#129 of 133 OFFLINE   Johnny Angell

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Posted June 16 2009 - 05:02 AM

In my discussion below, I'm assuming spoilers are not needed.

I am a latecomer to Bones and have been catching up watching the TNT reruns. I just watched "The Verdict in the Story", the episode in which Bones' father is found not guilty of murder. I've read/skimmed this thread and didn't find this episode discussed.

Towards the end of the episode, Bones develops and her team supports an alternative theory to who killed the FBI big wig. I found this troubling for a couple of reasons:
1) It smacked very much of a conspiracy by an official government investigative agency to get a murderer exonerated of his crime. They all believe he did it.
2) When Booth is on the stand testifying to this alternative theory, he looks at Bones with regret and it appears to me he is seriously considering the possibility that she really did commit the crime. Did I misinterpret this? Was the regret I saw for something else, perhaps the regret he feels getting a murderer exonerated of the crime? My first impression is that he really considered the possibility that Bones did the murder. Considering her martial arts skills and the fact that FBI dude came to her apartment to kill her, and the fact that the murder weapon was on display there, this is a physical possibility.

BTW, anyone heard of this series being released on BluRay? I'd be interested in that. I'll be watching the last two season 3 episodes soon. Yeah I've read the thread and know about Zack.
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#130 of 133 OFFLINE   Nicholas Martin

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Posted June 16 2009 - 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angell

BTW, anyone heard of this series being released on BluRay? I'd be interested in that.

Season 4, which finished up with a bizarre finale last month will be released on DVD and Blu-ray but there's no official release date yet for them.

After waiting for the price to drop on season 3, which retails between $40 and $60, I picked up a pre-viewed Blockbuster copy for $25 just a couple of weeks ago.

Typically they are released either just prior or just after the new season begins, and the show returns for its fifth season September 17.

It was renewed for a fifth AND sixth season!

#131 of 133 OFFLINE   Johnny Angell

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Posted June 16 2009 - 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
Season 4, which finished up with a bizarre finale last month will be released on DVD and Blu-ray but there's no official release date yet for them...It was renewed for a fifth AND sixth season!
I hope they go back and release all the seasons on blu. That is very unusual to get a multiple season renewal.
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#132 of 133 OFFLINE   Patrick_S

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Posted June 16 2009 - 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angell
I just watched "The Verdict in the Story", the episode in which Bones' father is found not guilty of murder. I've read/skimmed this thread and didn't find this episode discussed.

Towards the end of the episode, Bones develops and her team supports an alternative theory to who killed the FBI big wig. I found this troubling for a couple of reasons:
1) It smacked very much of a conspiracy by an official government investigative agency to get a murderer exonerated of his crime. They all believe he did it.
2) When Booth is on the stand testifying to this alternative theory, he looks at Bones with regret and it appears to me he is seriously considering the possibility that she really did commit the crime. Did I misinterpret this? Was the regret I saw for something else, perhaps the regret he feels getting a murderer exonerated of the crime? My first impression is that he really considered the possibility that Bones did the murder. Considering her martial arts skills and the fact that FBI dude came to her apartment to kill her, and the fact that the murder weapon was on display there, this is a physical possibility.

Concerning your first point, how are you coming to that conclusion? Max’s attorney needed to raise reasonable doubt by giving the jury an alternate murderer and Bones knew that the hard evidence meant that only she could be reasonably consider as that alternate. The defense attorney called member’s of Bones team back to the stand to simply confirm the hard evidence in the case. This is not supporting her theory but rather simply confirming the truth of the evidence.

I think the emotions that Booth registers while on the stand is not a realization that Bones could be the murder or that Max might be getting off but rather a sadness that his partner and friend and someone he loves is now going to be wrongly consider as a possible murderer by the public.

As for the Blu-Rays of series, I was glad to see that season for is going to be released and I certainly hope that the back seasons follow shortly.

#133 of 133 OFFLINE   Johnny Angell

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Posted June 17 2009 - 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_S
Concerning your first point, how are you coming to that conclusion? Max’s attorney needed to raise reasonable doubt by giving the jury an alternate murderer and Bones knew that the hard evidence meant that only she could be reasonably consider as that alternate. The defense attorney called member’s of Bones team back to the stand to simply confirm the hard evidence in the case. This is not supporting her theory but rather simply confirming the truth of the evidence.

Hmmm. I guess I need to watch this episode again the next time it airs. I was left with the strong feeling that every member of the team, including Bones, believed that Max was guilty and that they were all hoping (or at least conflicted about the result) for an acquittal. I have to at least question their bias in the case. In real life, with someone on their team related to the accused, they wouldn't be let anywhere near the case. There was another episode in which Hodgins was roundly criticized for hiding the fact that had an affair with the wife of a murder victim. If he can't be on a case for that reason, surely the entire team should be disqualified for this one. I know, I know, it's Hollywood logic and I shouldn't take it to far here.

Quote:
I think the emotions that Booth registers while on the stand is not a realization that Bones could be the murder or that Max might be getting off but rather a sadness that his partner and friend and someone he loves is now going to be wrongly consider as a possible murderer by the public.
That's an interpretation that did not occur to me and is as valid as mine. What moved me in the "Bones did it" direction was the mental images the Booth had of her committing the crime. If Bones did it, that could explain Max making such a stupid mistake by leaving his weapon of choice with the body, he's trying to take the fall for his daughter. What argues against that idea is that it is hard to believe that Bones would not own up to what she did. She ought to have a good self-defense defense.

Yesterday I just watched the episode in which Bones sings "Girls Just Want to Have Fun." I found myself enjoying her performance very much. She has a very "entertaining but don't give up your day job" voice. Of course the fun ended very suddenly.
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