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Looking for a boost in my sound


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31 replies to this topic

#1 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 12 2007 - 12:08 PM

I have a 77" projector in my room(apartment). i also have two amps, one a 1600 watt two chanel beast. and another 2000Watt Buttkicker amp. The two chanel goes to two tower speakers on the sides of the screen, and the buttkicker obviously kicks butt.

My problem is not that i want "surround sound" don't really care if can hear a bullet commign from behind me. My problem is my sound, doesn't sound full enough. I have temporarly fixed the problem by adding a computer 5.1 system to the mix. using the satalite speakers to fill in the 3D sound field. But i'm running that by splitting my sound source RCA's with y cables, just doesn't seem right to me.


Is there a way i could possibly wire a small sub in with the buttkicker to work as one unit? or possibly wire two side speakers in with the centers to surround me?

I have the power handling just short on ideas.

#2 of 32 Robert_J

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Posted September 12 2007 - 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
Is there a way i could possibly wire a small sub in with the buttkicker to work as one unit?
Small? The BK amp will push almost 1,000w into a 4 ohm load so you need something that isn't small. A guy from another forum used a BK amp when he built his sub - link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
or possibly wire two side speakers in with the centers to surround me?
Now you are just adding speakers. There's timbre issues, phase issues, spl matching issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
I have the power handling just short on ideas.
How about getting a real HT receiver and a proper set of 5 or 7 speakers? I know you said you didn't need to hear the full surround package but you will be able to have many more adjustments to your sound whether you use the full package or not. Maybe you haven't heard a properly set up surround sound system? They are amazing. Dynamic, full sound. Even the lower power models can be tweaked to sound great and satisfy 95% of the public. We're the hard core nuts who tweak the last little bit of improvement out of our systems.

Also you don't mention amps or speaker brands other than Buttkicker. What other equipment are you running for sound?

-Robert

#3 of 32 LanceJ

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Posted September 12 2007 - 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J
How about getting a real HT receiver and a proper set of 5 or 7 speakers? I know you said you didn't need to hear the full surround package but you will be able to have many more adjustments to your sound whether you use the full package or not. Maybe you haven't heard a properly set up surround sound system? They are amazing. Dynamic, full sound. Even the lower power models can be tweaked to sound great and satisfy 95% of the public. We're the hard core nuts who tweak the last little bit of improvement out of our systems.
Posted Image

Or if you really don't want surround, get a pair of these:

CLS-215

Four 15" drivers ought to sound pretty full! Posted Image

#4 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 13 2007 - 12:54 AM

the other amp is a SX 1800 from samson. http://www.zzounds.com/item--SAMSX1800 . Basically i don't want a dedicated surround sound system because i live in an 10X15 room with enough power to run a small concert, a 5.1 small computer system DTT 3500 http://www.amazon.co..../dp/B000068PJA . a buttkicker. and two towers.

to add ANOTHER amp, and seven more speakers would be brutal over kill, plus i'm still broke from college for the next thirty years Posted Image. Only reason i have the big amps is they are from my Bass guitar rig. Figured there should be someway to use them

#5 of 32 Jeff Gatie

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Posted September 13 2007 - 01:34 AM

Uhhh, your bass guitar rig??? I've heard of people using PA amps to power home setups, but a bass amp??? Posted Image

My suggestion is to skip increasing the horsepower and concentrate on putting 4 wheels on the car. You need to purchase a proper setup, with bass management and at least the ability to put out surround sound. Start with good quality front speakers and an A/V receiver and then start saving up. No offense, but what you are doing now is a travesty, and making it louder is not going to make it better, it's only going to annoy the neighbors (not to mention anyone within 4 square miles that has the least little inkling of what good sound is). Posted Image

#6 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 13 2007 - 02:15 AM

Nah not looking for louder. And it is a straight linear power amp. not specifically a Bass amp. i just run my preamp outputs thru it. I don't want the 15's because as you said it will just be loud. i'm not into loud. Just clean sound.

#7 of 32 Jeff Gatie

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Posted September 13 2007 - 02:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
Nah not looking for louder. And it is a straight linear power amp. not specifically a Bass amp. i just run my preamp outputs thru it. I don't want the 15's because as you said it will just be loud. i'm not into loud. Just clean sound.

Sorry, but wanting to "fill out the sound" by adding speakers (a computer system coupled with full size mains?? Posted Image ) willy nilly around the room, all putting out the same stereo signal means all imaging will be destroyed, all directionality will be scrambled and all tone will be colored by the various unmatched timbres of the speakers. That is not "clean sound"; that is a mess. And adding amplification to an already over amped, over distorted mess in order to drive more speakers is much more towards the goal of "louder", not "cleaner", regardless of intent. I'm not trying to sound harsh, just giving the facts. Concentrate less on wattage and more on a smoothly tuned, timbre matched system and then you will really have "clean sound".

#8 of 32 SherardP

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Posted September 13 2007 - 03:08 AM

A series of things can improve sound to include, connections, cables, power as youre asking about, and last but not least better speakers. If you feel your speakers are ok and on par with what youre after, a proper calibration and setup can improve performance.

#9 of 32 Jeff Gatie

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Posted September 13 2007 - 03:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SherardP
A series of things can improve sound to include, connections, cables, power as youre asking about, and last but not least better speakers. If you feel your speakers are ok and on par with what youre after, a proper calibration and setup can improve performance.

Calibration means nothing because he's not running a surround setup. He's got 7 (I think??) speakers running off RCA 'Y' cables, all putting out the left or right channel of a stereo signal. His first step would be to get a proper A/V reciever, but he insists he doesn't want surround, just "clean sound". I'd like to help futher, but I really don't know what to say. Posted Image

#10 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 13 2007 - 06:16 AM

I think you guys are getting me wrong here.

But yes right now, accually i'm running 9 speakers. LFE, 5.1, plus the two centers. Ideally i would like to take the 5.1 system out of the mix but still have a bit of rear fill. more just to envelope you so it doesn't sound like all the sound is comming from directly in front of you.


Right now the LFE is providing the tactile bass i like(without rockign the unit), but the small 5.1 is needed for its small audio sub still(they work more as a complementary rather than a replacement).

also the 5.1 (opperating in sterio) fills in the sides nicely. But its a lot of splitting And additional sources of grounds and complexity that i don't think should be needed.


Yes the easy(expensive) fix would be to scrap what i have and just get a new system, But i have these amps and speakers so i would like to try working with them.

I believe to revise my topic i guess i'm asking if there are any crossover(?) style components that i could use to direct frequencys and power to different speakers on the same line.

#11 of 32 Jeff Gatie

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Posted September 13 2007 - 07:25 AM

Arrrhgggghhh!! Posted Image

#12 of 32 mylan

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Posted September 13 2007 - 08:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Arrrhgggghhh!! Posted Image

Really, this a funny thread!
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#13 of 32 Andrew Pratt

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Posted September 13 2007 - 09:10 AM

Specifically what are your front speakers? Are they being used for the bass amp playback or are they just for the multi channel system? Also is the Samson amp being used for the guitar as well or just in this system?

My advice like the guys above is you need to forget about the 5.1 PC system and stop splitting the mains if you really want to get clean sound. That's not a very large room to fill so you won't need monsterous power to reach loud and clear volumes so it doesn't have to get expensive. If you insist on keeping the Samson amp in this room then I'd seriously consider adding a cheap HT receiver that has pre outs for the front channels. Buy used on eBay if need be but you can get these for under $100. Let that power the center and surrounds and use the pre outs to the Samson to power your fronts. Keep the Buttkicker on the LFE channel and if you still want more low end consider building a subwoofer and letting the Buttkicker amp drive the sub and tactile unit (it'll have enough power to do both jobs fine and is stable at 2 ohms I believe)

#14 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 14 2007 - 01:49 AM

The speakers are SS-U201. 200 watt 8 ohm floor speakers. they may be too old to find anything online about them. The bass cabinent is NOT being used. only my Power Amp.

Now we are getting somewhere with the wiring a sub in with the buttkicker... Can i just straight wire them together? How will i adjust it if the audio sub is too loud or too quiet?

#15 of 32 JohnRice

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Posted September 14 2007 - 09:06 AM

Well, there is one thing you can do to "fill in" the sound, though I don't know why you insist on this Frankenstein approach. You can wire a second pair of speakers to an amp and use them in the rear. What you do is hook the positive from one speaker to the positive on that channel on the amp, then hook the negative from the other channel to the negative on the other speaker. Finally, you connect the remaining positive and negative connections on the SPEAKERS together. This creates a mono L-R channel from those two speakers which is essentially the same thing as you get from a Dolby Surround processor. I don't recall the impedance result of this, but I recall it is safe, though you are taking the risk, so don't blame me. I did this years ago and there were no problems. It helps if you have a volume control on the amp, or you can hook a potentiometer with suitable capacity in the wire going between the speakers to reduce the volume.

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#16 of 32 Robert_J

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Posted September 14 2007 - 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
Now we are getting somewhere with the wiring a sub in with the buttkicker...
I suggested that 2 days ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
Can i just straight wire them together?
If you get a 4 ohm sub, then you can wire them in parallel. The BK amp is capable of 1,900w in 2 ohms. Like I said earlier, buy a sub that can handle this kind of power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
How will i adjust it if the audio sub is too loud or too quiet?
Adjust the volume control of the BK amp. Yes, that will change the output of your tactile transducer but that's what you have to live with when you piece together a system like yours.

-Robert

#17 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 14 2007 - 09:48 AM

Wow you guys are brutal. I think it sounds pretty darn good for a recycled system. What did people do before AV recievers and speakers came in a box together?

#18 of 32 Jeff Gatie

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Posted September 14 2007 - 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfmaze
Wow you guys are brutal. I think it sounds pretty darn good for a recycled system. What did people do before AV recievers and speakers came in a box together?

Before A/V receivers, we owned stereo speakers. 1 Pair (unless we had some esoteric quad system) or a pair of sats and a sub. That's it. And most of us didn't buy ours in a box together. We selected them from a series of timbre matched speakers within a product line. As far as being "brutal", we tried to tell you how you could make the system you have sound better and all you wanted to hear about were ways to add more power. Sorry, but "brutal" or not, your system needs an a/v receiver 100 times more than it needs more power.

#19 of 32 JohnRice

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Posted September 14 2007 - 11:25 AM

Aw c'mon Jeff. He only has what? Potentially 4kilowatts. Sounds kind of anemic to me, particularly in a 10x15 room.

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#20 of 32 Elfmaze

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Posted September 14 2007 - 01:21 PM

Never said i needed more power i mearly brought up the amps to demonstrate that anemic amps were not my problem. I just need to fill in some missing holes in the frequency and sound stage. If i wanted straight power than the cerwin vegas would be the ticket and everyone within two miles would hear the thing.

Sites like this (http://www.soundstag....ifiersetup.htm) are more what i was looking at when planning this system. there is nothing cleaner than straight Power amps. especially ones that don't break a sweat powering the speakers they have been attached to.

True i'm not exactly going for matching. short of possibly adding a smaller Samson power amp for side channels. But the key here was to design a system that would work in both of its job functions(live performances and moonlighting powering home theater speakers).

I have had a Home theater setup before, An RCA 700 watt 5.1 system. Granted it was only $450 but what i have now has twice the audio clarity i had back then. Its just not a compleat system yet.


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