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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*


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#41 of 3878 RAF

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Posted August 10 2007 - 08:03 AM

Wow! Go offline for a couple of hours and you miss all the fun!

A few random thoughts from the old timer (who loves and endorses both formats in theory and with his pocketbook):
  • A lot of interesting comments here and a couple of eye-openers as well. Of course, this is the spot (or more correctly one of two spots) that we have designated to allow for some "Smackdowns" and "Upside Your Face With Smitties." And I can't help but notice that all the other threads have benefited greatly from this new policy. People are actually talking HT rather than their favorite "color."
  • I've seen that some of the usual suspects are claiming that the HTF has shut down all discussions of the format wars. As usual, these people obviously don't read the announcements or choose to ignore the fact that we have set up specific areas where you can express your views in a civil manner. Telling it like it isn't on other Internet venues doesn't enhance a person's credibility. Especially when anyone is free to come to the HTF (even banned members!) and see what the true situation is.
  • I've read over Hartwig Hanser's remarks after his original "Ben Williams was right" comment and after his further clarification of the situation his words don't rile me as much as when he first wrote them. Let's just say that any person who states in an open forum that Graffeo was "driven from the room" by the tough audience at EMA (when the video clearly shows that he had announced 45 minutes earlier that he had to leave to catch a flight) clearly has misrepresented reality. I was there and I can attest to the fact that this was a blatant lie. There's a lot more to Williams' banishment from this forum than just some simple comments that were misinterpreted. Believe me, if you are a friend of Williams you don't want to pursue this. (I wouldn't have even mentioned this if it didn't come to the surface in this thread). 'Nuff said on that.
  • This "missing section of tape" is laughable at best - along with all the conspiracy theorists. Let's see: Ron + Williams = Rosemary + Woods. Hmmm... There's got to be a connection here! It's plain as day. Check the room at The Venetian for any grassy knolls! Posted Image Posted Image Seriously, Ron has explained his actions while taping. I was sitting right there no more than 10 feet away from him. He was concentrating on trying to provide as much coverage as possible with his camera and I'm certain that he wasn't even paying attention to the actual words being said (other than looking for a good time to switch to the body tripod). He didn't have a cadre of "HD-DVD advisors" keeping track of what was said and telling him when to film and when not to in this free form forum. No conspiracy here. Give me a break.
  • Finally - I, too, am amazed at how some otherwise reasonable (or so I thought) people can get so passionate about formats - to the point of absurdity. This is about competing HD formats, not about World Peace. There is a fine line between fervent and fanatical. It's one thing to express a preference and quite another to go bananas whenever someone disagrees with you. It's affecting a lot of forums on the Internet and has polluted many of them beyond the point of being reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. A core group of people have actually become laughing stocks by their continuous, monotonous actions and many of them are probably not even aware that they have lost credibility in the eyes of many members. I have to say that many of them act more childish than my grandkids. Time to stop eating so many things with sugar in it! Posted Image Posted Image
Seriously, do what you want and say what you want as long as you stay within the forum guidelines of decent behavior (as clearly stated). But keep it all in the allotted sections.

I can't wait to see what floats to the surface next!

Posted Image

RAF
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#42 of 3878 Jason Seaver

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Posted August 10 2007 - 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
et's just be aware that our perceptions are our perceptions. Including mine, and including yours. In other words, it presumptuous to say "And anything else you get out of that is likely just projecting your own wishes/prejudices/fears onto someone else's statement."
Well, yeah. Clearly, using "you" to mean "people in general" on message boards is a habit I really should work on breaking.
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"What? Since when was this an energy...

#43 of 3878 Ed St. Clair

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Posted August 10 2007 - 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
What sickens me the most is the way this format war has twisted
people to the point where they feel the need to make childish
attacks on the opposing format. For someone to be determined to
undermine another format and studio by misrepresenting facts the
way it was done at this event is rather disheartening.
Furthermore, what really bothers me is how the HT internet community has turned on each other. Even during the spirited DTS versus DD discussions it wasn't this bad with the mean-spirited and at times, misrepresented comments made against each other. IMO, the society of HT enthusiasts that resides on this forum and other forums like HTF have become so fragmented and disjointed that it looks like we're more interested in making war with each other than holding the HT industry accountable for giving us the best consumer HT products they have to offer us. We used to be brothers/sisters in arms with a common goal in this great hobby called home theater, but today, I'm not so sure what we have become at this time?






Crawdaddy
For me, it started almost on Day One of this forum.
How frustrating that must have been for all of you. As always, thanks for this forum. Just from the beginning (I was pro-HD Disc, see my sig), I was overwhelmed by the FUD/kool-aid from one side of the war in those early days. I was the BIGGEST jerk here on HTF HD Software Forum as a response to what I found to be repulsive rhetoric. As time went on, no one was safe from either side, unfortunately.

You here have taken a BIG step. A step that will change the format/landscape of this forum. Wether it succeeds or not, it was the right step to take.

Thank you.
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
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#44 of 3878 Chris S

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Posted August 10 2007 - 04:09 PM

It's easy to see the negative side of how the format war has impacted the Home Theater community but I'm very proud to see how the the turmoil has also brought us together on this forum. The fact that there are so many here willing to fight in order to maintain that community only serves to prove this point.

I don't remember where I first read it (although I know it was on this forum) but the one thing I always come back to when I see tempers flare is: It's all about the movies. Never truer words were posted. It's not about any specific format, it's all about enjoying film.

I too commend the home theater staff for quarantining the "war talk" into specific threads. It's now up to all us as HTF contributors to ensure it's success and to raise the current level of discussion throughout the HT community.
DVD & Blu-ray - It's all about the movies!

#45 of 3878 Ryan-G

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Posted August 10 2007 - 06:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
What sickens me the most is the way this format war has twisted
people to the point where they feel the need to make childish
attacks on the opposing format. For someone to be determined to
undermine another format and studio by misrepresenting facts the
way it was done at this event is rather disheartening.

I think that for the most part the problem is two-fold.

1. Both of the formats are technically viable, unlike Divx which was a clear loser, and no one wants to be holding the short straw.

2. A number of events since DVD in many different markets have given people the impression that he who is heard the most will convince the market to shift to his desire. From MMORPG's to events like Jerricho and some of the changes to Star Wars, as well as the rerelease of the originals, companies have reinforced that if they hear the same thing alot they'll act on it. So, people feel they should do everything in their power to be heard as often as possible.

I'm sure you could also factor in cost and make allowances for rising gas prices and such to consider the probability that disposable income on this level is a luxury that can't readily be squandered now as well.

In short, no one wants to be on the short end, and there's no clear winner, just two viable choices and studio's making the only difference.

#46 of 3878 Jeff Adkins

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Posted August 10 2007 - 07:32 PM

For those accusing Ron of a big conspiracy against Blu-Ray, here is a quote from 6 months ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
Really, since I have a feeling Blu-Ray will be the eventual format winner, I would have probably bought a player already if not for the fact I can't find many titles that really interest me.
That doesn't sound like a quote that an HD-DVD shill would make. It sounds just like an honest assessment to me.

For a while, I was enjoying sitting on the sidelines and enjoying the whole soap-opera aspect of this war. Now, I've grown tired of the whole thing. I honestly don't care about the war itself. I'm dual format and enjoy both. I just watched Bourne Identity and Infernal Affairs on HD-DVD and BD respectively. Having said that, I really think the fat lady has sung. I have no problem with HD-DVD but I just think the numbers are too heavily stacked against it. Hopefully when this all plays out, we can return to sanity on these boards and spend our energy talking more about the discs instead of the color of the case.

#47 of 3878 ReggieW

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Posted August 10 2007 - 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Adkins
For those accusing Ron of a big conspiracy against Blu-Ray, here is a quote from 6 months ago:


That doesn't sound like a quote that an HD-DVD shill would make. It sounds just like an honest assessment to me.

For a while, I was enjoying sitting on the sidelines and enjoying the whole soap-opera aspect of this war. Now, I've grown tired of the whole thing. I honestly don't care about the war itself. I'm dual format and enjoy both. I just watched Bourne Identity and Infernal Affairs on HD-DVD and BD respectively. Having said that, I really think the fat lady has sung. I have no problem with HD-DVD but I just think the numbers are too heavily stacked against it. Hopefully when this all plays out, we can return to sanity on these boards and spend our energy talking more about the discs instead of the color of the case.

No, the fat lady has not sung.

Most of the general public remain indifferent to these formats. In fact, I doubt most consumers have even heard of either of them. BD will have to come down in price if they want to lock this up and HD-DVD will need more studio support. Once the general public feels that SD-DVD has worn out its welcome, then the REAL war will likely begin.

They both still have a long way to go imho.
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#48 of 3878 Hartwig Hanser

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Posted August 10 2007 - 08:03 PM

o my! I post a small comment and it starts an avalanche! Have mercy!

A last attempt for clarification before thankfully I go offline for the next 3 weeks (holiday!)

1) There is no suspicion of conspiracy! There never was! Please, everybody, do not start interpreting things that are not there

2) I do not know Ben Williams except for a single contact where I inquired him personally about the outcome of the dispute (Yes, I admit, I am a nosy person).

3) Long live HTF

bye

Hartwig

#49 of 3878 DeanWG

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Posted August 11 2007 - 05:26 PM

Wow . . . great thread.

I've gotta say, reading all of this reminds me to give a big middle finger to all the studios/CEs for not coming to their senses before either of these formats hit store shelves. It's embarassing how consumers are turning their support/frustration on each other. We should be talking about current and upcoming releases, not chewing each other's throats out trying the be on the "winning side."

#50 of 3878 Edwin-S

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Posted August 11 2007 - 07:10 PM

I really don't understand the divisiviness that surrounds this particular format war, especially among 'early adoptors'. I mean, most people here have to have been in this hobby long enough to know that format wars are the rule, not the exception. The, mostly, unified introduction of DVD as a single standard was the anomaly. The HD war is just returning to a pattern that has always existed in this hobby. I know that a lot people have 'invested' into one side or another and don't want to get 'burned' if their choice fails. But if someone feels that way then they shouldn't have gotten involved in the game this early. Anyone, who has been in this hobby long enough must understand that they have a 50/50 chance of choosing the wrong side when they 'early adopt'. The reason being that early adoptors only act as the 'canary' when it comes to determining whether there is a viable market for any new technology.
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#51 of 3878 Ronald Epstein

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Posted August 11 2007 - 09:32 PM

Gawd, I hate it when quotes like that are dragged up. I'm
not ashamed at what I said, but the problem is that a statement
like that will be posted elsewhere and taken out of context. So,
if you are going to quote me, be sure to quote this ENTIRE post.

I have never been a HD-DVD shill. It was the format that
I personally chose because of price. It's the only format I have had
experience with. Nobody has ever paid me to talk about it, and I
would never do something like that in the first place. Trust me, support
and occasional "freebies" from the studios don't buy endorsement.

If I had to take a gamble right now I would place my bet on Blu-Ray,
but realize I don't even have a player in my hands yet. Call it a "gut" feeling
without being positive either way. I am still very much into HD-DVD,
a format I absolutely love. My personal opinion on Blu-Ray winning is
based upon many of the opinions that have been posted already including
specs, penetration and studio support. I certainly can't form an opinion based on
personal use, but look forward to my first player by the beginning of September.

Despite my personal opinion, I don't see this war close to being over.
I absolutely remain neutral towards this format war. Quite frankly, HD-DVD
has an edge right now on price and that could be the only thing consumers
see this holiday season. In other words, it seems that the enthusiasts like
us compare hardware specs. Consumers walk in the store and look at price.

All of you should know better. Formats do not win because of better specs.
If that was the case, BETAMAX would have become dominant during the late '70s
and '80s.

Another thing....

We are very proud of our membership here. Most everyone has been
able to debate the issues without resorting to the type of childish attacks
that have been going on within other forums. RAF was dead on
with his remarks about how people have resorted to such absurd behavior
to push their agenda that they have lost all credibility in others eyes.

Divx was easy to kill on the Internet because everyone was
united in realizing that the format was a huge mistake.

Pushing your agenda this time out is not going to kill a format.
Announcing your website is supporting one side is not going to kill
a format. Making up lies about what happens at a HD-DVD panel
event is not going to kill a format. Attacking others and posting
pictures that mock studio heads are only going to take credibility
away from yourself and turn people off.

And what happens when your website decides to support ONE format?
You lose the ability to remain informative and objective. I would rather
go to a website to get factual information about each format as it
becomes available rather than be part of a "fanboy" site. I think all
of us that are part of the Internet have a responsibility to remain
objective and keep the public informed with facts.

This format war will be decided by consumers. I'm proud that
HTF remains neutral ground where people can get factual information
without wading through obnoxious posts. Our thanks to the membership
for realizing the need to remain level-headed.

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

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#52 of 3878 Averry

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Posted August 11 2007 - 09:36 PM

I think probably the biggest problem still is the pre-requisite for a Hi Def player.


You need a Hi Def TV.

Do alot of peple have hi def tv's? Yeah.

Does everybody with a DVD player have one? FAT NO.


This could be a long long adoption.
My expectations on Jurassic Park in HD. I better fricken BE THERE!

#53 of 3878 Ronald Epstein

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Posted August 12 2007 - 12:37 AM

Andrew,

Another good point.

Consumers aren't racing out to embrace these formats
and will probably not do so until price gets to be the same
as a DVD player. Even then, it's going to take several years
before either of these formats begin to really penetrate the
market the way DVD has now.

Some have argued that we need to kill one format now because
otherwise both may become defunct. Now that is certainly a valid
argument. The problem is, what gives any individual the right to
decide for the public which format is the better one? I see a few
sites racing to embrace Blu-Ray and tell people that this is the
format they should invest in. However, I still see many benefits in
HD-DVD that outweigh Blu-Ray at this time.

If one format was clearly better than the other then I
could accept argument that the other needs to go. However, all
I see right now is that we have two formats which BOTH have
advantages and disadvantages but yet are very appealing to
consumers. I am highly against anyone taking a position
at this time that one of these formats is so superior that we
need to kill the other off right away. That's ridiculous!

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner

 

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#54 of 3878 Jari K

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Posted August 12 2007 - 04:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
I have read the article and did not come away with the same impression you obviously had.

What impression that would be? It was a nicely written article/blog. I can personally divide the "facts" and "opinions" from the article like this one, so even if the writer is favouring Blu-ray in some degree, it doesn´t mean that it wasn´t interesting.

Like I said in some other thread(s), we believe what we want to believe. I believe that Universal is going neutral *at some point* and you believe (I assume! Posted Image ) that it´s staying firmly behind the HD DVD. Which one is "correct"? Only time will tell. In the meantime, these small interviews/articles/blogs/inside rumors/forum talk/etc is pretty much what we have. So I enjoy reading them (not all of them of course).

#55 of 3878 ReggieW

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Posted August 12 2007 - 07:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
What impression that would be? It was a nicely written article/blog. I can personally divide the "facts" and "opinions" from the article like this one, so even if the writer is favouring Blu-ray in some degree, it doesn´t mean that it wasn´t interesting.

Like I said in some other thread(s), we believe what we want to believe. I believe that Universal is going neutral *at some point* and you believe (I assume! Posted Image ) that it´s staying firmly behind the HD DVD. Which one is "correct"? Only time will tell. In the meantime, these small interviews/articles/blogs/inside rumors/forum talk/etc is pretty much what we have. So I enjoy reading them (not all of them of course).

It's not a matter of "belief." Universal has made it clear NUMEROUS times that they won't be releasing on BD. You certainly are allowed to dream/wish or whatever you want to call it.

I would also say that the writer was doing more than "favoring BD in some degree." Are you kidding? This comes from a dubiously named BD propaganda site financed by the BD supporting studios!? Scott Buettner pretty much sums this "article" up for me in Stereophile's Ultimate AV Guide blog:

http://blog.ultimate....1007formatwar/

Hettrick himself posted this over on AVS:


"The site and myself have been upfront ad nauseum on the site and in my blogs and in responses to postings that the site is indeed PRO-Blu-ray and BACKED by Blu-ray studios and other Blu-ray companies supporting Blu-ray"



The following poster called him out on this:


"Right. Except, no.

You came clean only when the site's financiers were found out. I was browsing your site very soon after it was opened, and the site's description was very much different. I think you started being "upfront" about your backers pretty soon after someone found out that the web domain is registered and owned by 20th Century Fox.

Before that the site was portrayed as yet another home media news/reviews/previews site. Yet it was painfully obvious to pretty much anyone that something smelled a bit fishy. That's why some folks started digging into your site.

Scott, I've worked as a professional journalist for more than 20 years. For the past 10 or so years I've also worked within the movie industry, for companies on both sides of this so-called format war. I've seen my share of corporate PR shams/stunts on the net, having had advance inside information about some of them. Let's just say I've become pretty adept at recognising such crapola.

While I understand why such stunts are pulled, I don't like them one bit. I'm glad yours was caught and outed. I'm sure your backers aren't too disappointed by that, however, as they know the majority of your readers never figure it out.

The only thing I can say about your editorial is... shame on you."



These are exactly my sentiments on this. Hettrick is about as credible as Jeff Gannon.
I think any reasonable person will find that ALL of the articles coming out of this "site" will favor BD--and this should surprise no one. The sites name is very disingenuous and misleading, and it's certainly not a branch of objective information on HD media for someone seeking information on the HD format war.

I think my sig at the bottom pretty much sums this one up!!!!!
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#56 of 3878 Paul.S

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Posted August 12 2007 - 08:03 AM

Thanks for your patience and those links, Reggie. Amen.

#57 of 3878 Chris S

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Posted August 12 2007 - 08:10 AM

The thing I find odd about Scott Hettick's article is the silence coming from the opposing side. This is, of course, not to say that it gives any more or less merit to the contents of the post but when Bill Hunt spoke out against HD DVD that camp was very quick to try to provide counter points and mediate the discussion. That doesn't seem to be the case here... at least not yet.
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#58 of 3878 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 12 2007 - 08:37 AM

Quote:
It's not a matter of "belief." Universal has made it clear NUMEROUS times that they won't be releasing on BD. You certainly are allowed to dream/wish or whatever you want to call it.

Let's face it, any exclusive studio, Universal or otherwise, will say they won't be releasing on the competing format right up until the day they announce their neutrality. That is why hope springs eternal on both sides of the fence.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#59 of 3878 ReggieW

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Posted August 12 2007 - 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Let's face it, any exclusive studio, Universal or otherwise, will say they won't be releasing on the competing format right up until the day they announce their neutrality. That is why hope springs eternal on both sides of the fence.

Very true.

I know many HD/BD supporters who have begun to tire of the endless crop of new "Universal will go neutral?" threads seemingly daily on AVS. I believe one of our HTF reviewers here, Gary Murrell, told them in one thread to either shut up about it or simply pony up for an HD-DVD player!

This is one of the benefits of being dual format--which I am not yet, but will be early next year. I am waiting to see if any other dual format players are released other than the LG or Samsung.
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#60 of 3878 ReggieW

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Posted August 12 2007 - 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris S
The thing I find odd about Scott Hettick's article is the silence coming from the opposing side. This is, of course, not to say that it gives any more or less merit to the contents of the post but when Bill Hunt spoke out against HD DVD that camp was very quick to try to provide counter points and mediate the discussion. That doesn't seem to be the case here... at least not yet.

Probably because it isn't worth the bandwidth.

If Mr. Hettick really wanted to be fair and objective, he could've simply have published his FULL interview with Kornblau so WE could've decided what was said in its proper context, rather than spinning Kornblau's positions with selective quotes bolstered by infammatory format war rhetoric.

Hell, what else should we expect from a propaganda site financed by the interviewee's opposition!?!
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