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14 replies to this topic

#1 of 15 JediFonger

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Posted July 19 2007 - 11:10 AM

is it just me or do you guys also see digital blurring/artifacts when viewing HD DVD/Blu-Ray on ANY display. when i'm in best buy/circuit city/*any HT place* and i look @EVERY SINGLE display that is properly hooked up, hdmi/dvi or component. no matter which brand or technology, i always see it.

the best presentation happens on a few CRT's that are still around. is it just me or do you guys notice this as well?

#2 of 15 Steve Schaffer

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Posted July 19 2007 - 03:52 PM

I own both formats and use a Sony KDS60A2000 tv. I also work in the electronics dept. of a large Sears store. Short answer--no, never saw any such problem.
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#3 of 15 Tino

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Posted July 20 2007 - 05:31 AM

nope, just youPosted Image
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#4 of 15 Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted July 20 2007 - 05:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
is it just me or do you guys also see digital blurring/artifacts when viewing HD DVD/Blu-Ray on ANY display.

the best presentation happens on a few CRT's that are still around. is it just me or do you guys notice this as well?
Just you.Posted Image

In my home, both Blu-ray & HD-DVD have been connected via HDMI on both a native 1080P Sharp Aquos LC-46D62U and a native 1080P Sony Ruby (FP) and via Component on a "CRT" = native 1080i Sony KW-34HD1 HDTV.
No "Blurring /artifacts" at all, except a slight softness from the "CRT".

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#5 of 15 Carlo Medina

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Posted July 20 2007 - 05:50 AM

Many BB and CCs have their feeds going from a shared central place. I live across the street from a Best Buy and that's how they have their setup. That is a haven for digital artifacts galore. I too have seen them. Even if it's connected by HDMI or component, the signal is still being split too many ways.

The two sets they have which are a Sony and a Samsung LCD TV hooked directly up to a BD player, don't show any of the artifacts.

However when I hook my PS3 up via component or HDMI to DVI to either of my HDTVs at home and watch any of my BD discs, I don't see artifacts. I see them on my HD-feed from cable (though not from over-the-air, which is sad that these days rabbit ears is better than cable for HD).

#6 of 15 BrettB

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Posted July 20 2007 - 06:16 AM

I've been wondering about this and I find it hard to believe that it's *all* down to source and crappy setup/conditions at retailers. Are you telling me at this point in time that lcd and plasma tech is perfected? Everytime I go to a Best Buy I'm so freaking happy I've got a crt.

#7 of 15 Shawn Perron

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Posted July 20 2007 - 06:43 AM

In store networks that distrubute over component video can easily cause a lot of problems if there isn't enough bandwidth/signal strength. When an analog HD signal doesn't have enough bandwidth to diplay it's total resolution it effectively halves the possible resolution. So a bandwidth staved 1080i signal would effective be a 960x1080 signal, and possibly even drop to 480x1080 if the bandwidth problem is bad enough. Also there is also the possibility of picking up interference since it is an analog signal being transferred.

Here's a decent link to check out on this issue: http://hometown.aol....ejr/bandwid.htm

Distribution of a digital signal can be even more troublesome. If there isn't enough bandwidth/signal strength to carry the signal, the HDTV receiving the signal cannot reliably differentiate between the 1's and 0's arriving at the set which will result in video break up and other picture issues.

The only real way to see what these signals are supposed to look like is a direct connection between the source and the TV, or a properly specced run for longer distances (including repeaters or whatever other gear is needed to properly maintain the signal).

#8 of 15 Douglas Monce

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Posted July 20 2007 - 08:29 AM

I have a 30 inch 1080I CRT and a 47 inch 1080I plasma. Both are connected via HDMI. There is no "digital bluring" when the plasma is setup correctly. However there is a "noise reduction" setting that when turned to high can cause some lagging in fast moving images. I leave that setting in the off position.

The only major difference (other than size) is distortion at the edges of the 30 inch which is unavoidable with a CRT of that size.

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#9 of 15 Marko Berg

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Posted July 20 2007 - 09:38 AM

I agree with Douglas; noise reduction algorithms and the like are not necessary when watching HD stored on an optical disc format. Those settings might be able to improve a standard definition image in certain conditions (bad analogue reception) but they are useless as far as HD is concerned.

I have seen a Blu-ray 1080p image on plasma and LCD at a local Sony Center, and the picture was very, very beautiful to look at.

#10 of 15 JediFonger

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Posted July 21 2007 - 05:39 AM

but i owned a westy 1080p for a short while and it displayed the same characteristics. i've also been to many friends 720p displays, same artifacts. it's hard to describe what i'm talking about but still pictures are nice... but anytime motion comes in the blurriness is too crazy.

#11 of 15 troy evans

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Posted July 21 2007 - 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
but i owned a westy 1080p for a short while and it displayed the same characteristics. i've also been to many friends 720p displays, same artifacts. it's hard to describe what i'm talking about but still pictures are nice... but anytime motion comes in the blurriness is too crazy.
I know what You're talking about.When I first got My plasma I watched alot of My current sd dvds on a Samsung upconvert dvd player through component and never saw any problems.Then, when I got My HD DVD player and connected it with HDMI cable I noticed when scenes shifted and fast motion was on screen it would get this slight blocking/chopping of the image.It wouldn't even be the whole screen either but just say a car or jet or any one thing moving fast.I first noticed this when I was watching Stargate SG1:Season 9/first episode,when They recap the dogfight over the Antarctic some of the death-gliders start looking choppy as scenes track behind them then break to go left or right to track another glider.To fix this all I did was set my dvd players output to 720p and I haven't had a problem since.In My opinion I think HDMI cables handle progressive feeds very well and component cables do better for interlaced signals.This makes sense when you consider HDMI is a digital cable and 720 progressive is a digital source.While,Component is an analog cable and 1080 interlaced is an analog source even though it can carry progressive signals it still breaks them down into analog first.Where as HDMI is digital to digital.Some Here may disagree with Me but this fixed My problems.
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#12 of 15 Carlo Medina

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Posted July 22 2007 - 04:34 AM

Fonger,

You're trying to paint in broad strokes (i.e. all displays are imperfect) based on this statistical sample:

1. "best buy/circuit city/*any HT place*"
2. "i owned a westy 1080p"
3. "I've also been to many friends 720p displays, same artifacts"

For #1, we've already mentioned how all of those big box stores run many signals out of one source for the store, hence the artifacting.

For #2, I can appreciate your ownership of a Westy, but they aren't known for having the best sets. Also, we have no idea of your source, your cables, setup, etc.

For #3, you're talking about 720p sets. There has to be some conversions from 1080i or 1080p to 720p. That could account for artifacting. And again, we have no idea of your friends' sources, cables, setup, etc.

Meanwhile you can read this forum, which has many knowledgeable people who have been into home theater for a decade or longer, some of whom are ISF calibrators, who talk about the greatness of the newer 1080p sets [within the last 12-18 months] and pictures they get from them when fed via a 1080p source.

But if you've got your mind made up to trust what you've seen in box stores, your own Westy which you owned for a short time, and your friends' 720p sets, over the testimonies on HTF, that's certainly your prerogative.

#13 of 15 JediFonger

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Posted July 23 2007 - 05:34 AM

1. to be more specific, i'm referring to the single points of connection, not splitter boxes. they have a whole 100% pioneer avr, toshiba hd player, hdmi connections, the works. it's rigs like that. i understand that splitter boxes can produce artifacts, but i'm talking about direct connections.

2. the source is anything. cable HD component/dvi, PC's dvi, hd players, anything. it's properly calibrated+setup. both 1080i+720p looks like it suffers.

3. friends are properly calibrated+setup.

i've been reading this forum longer than i've been registered =P.

i don't think what i've seen is biased, it's well founded, i'm just wondering how other people haven't really noticed it.

#14 of 15 Carlo Medina

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Posted July 23 2007 - 06:44 AM

Okay, I'm going to address these one last time, and then if that doesn't convince you, I'm fine with that.
Quote:
1. to be more specific, i'm referring to the single points of connection, not splitter boxes. they have a whole 100% pioneer avr, toshiba hd player, hdmi connections, the works. it's rigs like that. i understand that splitter boxes can produce artifacts, but i'm talking about direct connections.
I have yet to see a big box store, as you claim CC, BB, etc. have a lot of these type of connections. Very few indeed. So if you're certain this is happening, I can't help you out. Every BB/CC I've been to (and in So. Cal that numbers in the dozens) have split-run connections for the vast majority.

Now the few that do have direct connections, if they are running a demo disc (something put together by Sony and/or Samsung, which I have seen) there are artifacts, but I've personally confirmed them to be the fault of the demo disc. How do I know? I saw several scenes in Black Hawk Down & Into the Blue which had compression artifacts on those displays, but when I bought the final Blu-Ray discs, those artifacts were not present. So perhaps this is what you're talking about.
Quote:
2. the source is anything. cable HD component/dvi, PC's dvi, hd players, anything. it's properly calibrated+setup. both 1080i+720p looks like it suffers.
This is in reference to the Westy you owned for a short period, yes? Okay, again Westinghouse is not known for it's quality.

Besides that, you state cable HD via component and DVI. Doesn't matter what connection, cable HD is a compressed video feed. That's where your artifacts are coming from. You could connect it via HDMI 1.3 to a $10K 1080p projector and it wouldn't matter. HD cable is highly compressed.

re: "PC DVI" - well assuming you don''t own a BD/HD-DVD player in your PC (which are very rare and expensive) I don't know what content you were watching. Very likely the source is the culprit, as even "HD" downloads from the web are compressed (i.e. HD trailers from Apple's website, etc.). If you're watching DVDs via PC->DVI->TV, well obviously DVDs are heavily compressed and better equipment will actually bring that out more.

Then you say both "1080i and 720p suffer" - well none of those are 1080p signals. So perhaps your Westy didn't upconvert well. That may have been the case, but such anecdotal evidence does not allow one to paint all HD devices as flawed.

Finally you say "all are calibrated properly" - how? Did you hire an ISF tech? If so, contact him and find out what the problem is.
Quote:
3. friends are properly calibrated+setup.
Again, how is it calibrated? All of you pay for ISF'ing? Really odd statement too as even though I have quite a few HT hobbyists as friends, I'm the only one with ISF calibration, so you must have a really advanced group of friends who make sure their displays are calibrated.

Second, that statement again does not address the need to convert to your friends' 720p sets. Another conversion which if not done properly introduces artifacts.

Phew - okay I'm done with my replies here in this thread. If you still think display devices haven't reached an acceptable level, by all means keep your money in the bank account and wait it out until they reach an acceptable level for you.

Just remember your original post: you asked if this happens on every display. I won't dispute that your set, or even some of your friends' sets, have problems. But 720p and Westinghouse sets are already dated technology, so given that, artifacts are not surprising. Of the new 1080p sets I've seen, those problems you describe are very minimal, if present at all, given a true 1080p source (BD or HD-DVD 1080p player) hooked up directly via an HDMI to the set. I plan to buy a new Sony A3000 set when they come out in the fall (and yes, I know Sonys have their own problems like overblown color) and I'll resurrect this thread in a few months to let you know if I see blurring or digital artifacts on there from the HDMI 1.3 feed from my PS3.

#15 of 15 Shawn Perron

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Posted July 23 2007 - 06:58 AM

I can verify that my 1080p Sony 70" SXRD XBR2 doesn't exhibit any ghosting or blurring at any resolution through either HDMI or component. Any that you are seeing is all equipment or source related. Which is about what Carlos was trying to tell you.


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