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SVS PB12-NSD and Hsu MBM-12????


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#1 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 19 2007 - 05:38 AM

Hello people I have been wondering if there are any members here that own or have owned an SVS PB12-NSD and used it with a Hsu MBM-12 midbass module??? If so, please share your impressions/oberservations with us. My room is just a tad bit under 2000 ft^3 and when watching movies my PB12-NSD really kicks as* if you know what I mean. However, the same is NOT true when listening to music. That is, the PB12 does not give me enough output above 35-40 Hz range where it is needed for tight articulation. In other words, I need more output in the 30-80 Hz range so as such been thinking about buying me a Hsu MBM-12 midbass module. If I do this, will this give me what I am looking for? Are there any other alternatives with respect to cost(s). What I am implying here is that I have a very tight budget. Been thinking about plugging the 4" port on the PB12-NSD BUT havn't done so because of fear I may damage the 12" NSD driver. I would had been better off buying a sub that offered me a better balance of the two extremes-one being ht performance and the other being musicality. I really do not need a sub to dig to the lowest depths BUT rather one that is capable of digging low while at the same time remaining quite punchy and articulate when listening to music. Perhaps, getting a second PB12-NSD may solve my problem but not sure. I have experimented with various placements as well as X-over frequencies. As a result, the PB12-NSD is currently placed between my mains with a X-over set at 100 Hz. When it was placed in the upper right hand corner I used the 80 Hz X-over setting. But to be honest, I have NOT found any significant improvment in performance with any placement. Just seems to sound and perform about the same. I also level matched the sub with my RS meter for better integration. My guess is that since the PB12 has such a large cabinet that by plugging the 4" port may allow the sub to offer me more midbass impact and articulation. Am I correct? Please help if you can as I am open to any and all suggestions. Thank you for your time.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#2 of 23 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted July 19 2007 - 07:57 AM

I suspect you are getting phase cancellation, resulting in a big hole at the crossover frequency. In between the main speakers is usually not a good spot for a sub. I would explore sub placement and crossover further before buying more equipment.

Also, the "Return" key is your friend...

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#3 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 19 2007 - 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRice
I suspect you are getting phase cancellation, resulting in a big hole at the crossover frequency. In between the main speakers is usually not a good spot for a sub. I would explore sub placement and crossover further before buying more equipment.

Also, the "Return" key is your friend...
Hi John thanks for posting. I have used several locations and fully calibrated them. None of which really made any significant difference. The reason the PB12 is between my mains is because of using a higher X-over point of 100 Hz. As I am sure you know, the higher the X-over point results in the sub becoming more localized. Ed Mullen explained to me in most cases when using a higher X-over point it is best to position the sub as close to the mains as possible. Further, when a sub such as the PB12-NSD is tuned low it sacrifices output in the 40-80 Hz range due to the driver being stiffer. Hence, midbass is best reproduced with a driver that is not so stiff BUt rather quicker resulting in more punchiness and articualtion. In other words, it is difficult to have a sub that digs to the lowest octaves while at the same time belt out high spls in the midbass regions that are so crucial to music applications. At least, this is how it has been explained to me as I am no expert. Not sure what you are implying by the "return" key. Care to explain? Posted Image Posted Image
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#4 of 23 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted July 19 2007 - 09:42 AM

I think he meant break the post up a bit so it is easier to read Posted Image Didn't I already answer this today LOL, which means I won't bog you down with more of the same here Posted Image
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#5 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 19 2007 - 11:32 AM

Download and burn some test tones. Then measure the SPL at each frequency. You may find the need for a BFD equalizer. I am also have a PB12 NSD and a BFD eq., but I don't listen to music with it.

#6 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 19 2007 - 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Garcia
I think he meant break the post up a bit so it is easier to read Posted Image Didn't I already answer this today LOL, which means I won't bog you down with more of the same here Posted Image
Hi John this is speakerman39 .............LOL!!!!!! I talked to Erik K today at SVS and he referred me to Ed Mullen. I have sent Ed a lot of pics of my set-up with lots of details and am awaiting his reply as we speak. I know thar Ed knows his stuff and he is a very nice guy. I also would like to thank you for all of your help as I enjoy reading your posts. Posted Image Posted Image Yeah guess I could of broke this post up a bit BUT I have a tendancy to rattle-at least I am thorough.......LOL!!!! Had the same problem in college BUT came in handy when I had to do a long term paper.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#7 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 19 2007 - 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
Download and burn some test tones. Then measure the SPL at each frequency. You may find the need for a BFD equalizer. I am also have a PB12 NSD and a BFD eq., but I don't listen to music with it.
Hi Dave, it is good to see and hear from another fellow Kentuckian. I have no need to download any tones as I have the Rives Test CD2 as well as the Avia. The test tones from the receiver along w/my Rat Shack meter is also very useful. Right now I am not too concerned with plotting my frequency response until I get everything optimally placed and calibrated. Oh heck, I think a lot of it is I am also lazy...........LOL!!!!!Posted Image Posted Image I may also look into getting BFD but it sure looks complicated. You know I am one of those guys that burns water when I am cooking..........LOL!!!!! Posted Image Posted Image
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#8 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 19 2007 - 10:43 PM

Quote:
I may also look into getting BFD but it sure looks complicated.
Not too complicated as much as time consuming. It took me the better part of a day. I had a 9 - 12 db drop in the 30-40Hz range that the BFD cleared up nicely.
Quote:
You know I am one of those guys that burns water when I am cooking..........LOL!!!!!
Well you might just burn out a few light bulbs by vibrating them to death with the test tones. I knocked out 3 my first go around.

#9 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 20 2007 - 01:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
Not too complicated as much as time consuming. It took me the better part of a day. I had a 9 - 12 db drop in the 30-40Hz range that the BFD cleared up nicely.
Well you might just burn out a few light bulbs by vibrating them to death with the test tones. I knocked out 3 my first go around.
Wow, a 9-12 db drop. Now that is very significant. What do you think was causing this? Can you elaborate more on how the BFD cleared that up for you? I mean you must of had to boost the frequencies quite a bit in order to get it as flat as possible. Anyways, thanks for the info. BTW, I reside in the Henderson area. If you ever are up this way let me know and perhaps we can do lunch. Hey, maybe you can fix my sub problem..............LOL!!!!! Just kidding. Posted Image Posted Image Have a great day.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#10 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 20 2007 - 03:15 AM

I don't really know what caused the issue But the BFD id clear it up. Here are the before (bottom) & after (top) graphs:
Posted Image


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#11 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 20 2007 - 12:04 PM

Thanks Dave. Just to let you know I did some recalibration today and the results are favorable. For one thing, I had the phase set to 0 and now have it at 90. This made a tremendous difference which means I had some sort of room cancellation going on. My guess is that it was in the upper and lower midbass regions that are so crucial for musical applications especailly in the 60 -80 Hz range. However, I am now much more interested in getting a BFD myself if it can make that much of a correction after seeing what it did for your room. Who knows, maybe I can get my PB12 to sound even better. At least it does sound much more musical and all I did was recalibrate and adjust the phase. I will be more than happy to give you a shout if I am ever over that way Dave. Take care and thanks for your help.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#12 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 25 2007 - 01:07 PM

Just wanted to give an update. With the help of Ed Mullen at SVS I have really improved the performance of my PB12-NSD. That is, it is much better musically and has always been stellar with ht applications. More specifically, I now have almost ruler flat performance from 20 -160 Hz. This result has really made me happy. My point is SVS has top-notch customer service especially from the likes of Ed Mullen and Erik K. The guys at SVS are dedicated to making you happy once you become a customer. I really dont think I need the Hsu MBM-12 BUT am going to get a BFD. Ed recommends the FBQ 2496 so my plan is to learn more about it first then buy one. I am sure the Hsu MBM-12 would also make a big difference performance wise BUT the BFD is less expensive and right now my money is tight to say the least. In closing, just want to thank everyone who chimed in w/their suggestions. Take care and God bless.Posted Image Posted Image
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#13 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 28 2007 - 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
I don't really know what caused the issue But the BFD id clear it up. Here are the before (bottom) & after (top) graphs:
Posted Image


I used to do some camping in the Lane Between the Lakes area. I don't get out that way much lately. I am in the Cave City area. If you ever visit Mammoth Cave give me a shout.
Hey Dave which Behringer EQ do you have? I am very confused as to which one to get. Ed Mullen recommeded the FBQ2496. I notice a lot of people own the DSP1124P. Not really sure what the differences are.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#14 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 29 2007 - 12:10 AM

They both basically do the same thing. I use the DSP1124P. The FBQ2496 is the next up, I can't really comment on it because I haven't used it. It costs about $50 more and has 40 programable frequencies (if you don't split L&R 20). The DSP1124P has 24 programmable frequencies (12). I used 10, but some people use less.

#15 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 29 2007 - 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
They both basically do the same thing. I use the DSP1124P. The FBQ2496 is the next up, I can't really comment on it because I haven't used it. It costs about $50 more and has 40 programable frequencies (if you don't split L&R 20). The DSP1124P has 24 programmable frequencies (12). I used 10, but some people use less.
Dave, which 10 frequencies did you use? Ed Mullen recommends that I employ a +3db boost at 200Hz and 315 Hz respectively speaking. After looking over my plotted in-room frequency curve I have a - 10 db dip at 800 Hz and
-3 db dip at 2000 Hz. Will the DSP1124P take care of these problems for me??? Dont mind spending $50 more dollars but not sure if the FBQ2496 really would be that much of a step-up or not. Any one here care to share their thoughts as I am very confused here???
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#16 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 29 2007 - 11:05 AM

Quote:
Dave, which 10 frequencies did you use?
If you look at the before & after graphs, you will get an idea of the frequencies. Starting at the left hand side, the edge of the graph is 10Hz. The first vertical line one over is 20, the next 30 and so on. I had 3 dips - 20, 30 & 40. I don't remember the exact frequencies I used. I would have to through the programming to write it down. I use the spreadsheets to get started and then do the rest by "feel". The BFD can boost or reduce up to 12 Db.
Here is a web page to get you started: http://www.hometheat...ack.com/roomeq/
It sounds complicated, but if you take one step at a time it is not so bad.
Also the frequencies that you are saying, do you mean 20.0 Hz instead of 200?

#17 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 29 2007 - 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
If you look at the before & after graphs, you will get an idea of the frequencies. Starting at the left hand side, the edge of the graph is 10Hz. The first vertical line one over is 20, the next 30 and so on. I had 3 dips - 20, 30 & 40. I don't remember the exact frequencies I used. I would have to through the programming to write it down. I use the spreadsheets to get started and then do the rest by "feel". The BFD can boost or reduce up to 12 Db.
Here is a web page to get you started: http://www.hometheat...ack.com/roomeq/
It sounds complicated, but if you take one step at a time it is not so bad.
Also the frequencies that you are saying, do you mean 20.0 Hz instead of 200?
No, I meant 200 Hz and 315 Hz. At 20 Hz I am at + 6 db so am just fine there. I used the Rives Test CD2 to plot my in-room frequency response. It is at 1/3 octave values-20 Hz, 25 Hz, 31.5 Hz, 40 Hz, 50 Hz, 63 Hz, 80Hz, 100 Hz, 125 Hz, and so on. It is ruler flat from 20 Hz-125 Hz each at + 6 db calibrated to 80db. I have a slight - 2 db at 160 Hz, a - 5 db dip at 200 Hz, and a - 5 db dip at 31.5 Hz. Furthermore, I have a - 16 db dip at 800 Hz which looks to be an in-room suckout. I also have a - 9 db dip at 2000 Hz. Would just like to address these dips and thus get things more flat. I also plan to boost things a bit in the 40 Hz -60 Hz range to have a bit more midbass punch. From your experience with the DSP1124P will it suffice OR would I be better off with the FBQ2496???? I will NOT be able to use my computer so I have to plot my response manually. It is NOT that hard and I have gotten the hang of it. Therefore, I want to be able to enter these values manually and adjust from there. I am still learning about the BFD as I am sure you can tell. Thanks Dave for your help. Posted Image Posted Image
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#18 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 29 2007 - 10:51 PM

Quote:
No, I meant 200 Hz and 315 Hz.
Just Checking. I have only read about a BFD used for the subwoofer - about 100Hz and below. Thats all I use it for. As you know the higher frequencies come from the 3 front speakers. I don't know if either BFD is designed for that.

#19 of 23 OFFLINE   ryan.p

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Posted July 29 2007 - 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
Just Checking. I have only read about a BFD used for the subwoofer - about 100Hz and below. Thats all I use it for. As you know the higher frequencies come from the 3 front speakers. I don't know if either BFD is designed for that.
Okay Dave. Thanks for your help. Guess I have a lot of reading to do, eh? That is what makes this hobby so much fun.........you know the chase........researching and learning all you can in pursuit of sonic perfection. Have a great day. Posted Image Posted Image
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#20 of 23 OFFLINE   drobbins

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Posted July 30 2007 - 01:29 AM

If you hare having issues with the higher frequencies, acoustic panels can help sometimes. I ended up buying 3 fiberglass panels. I will give you some links when I get out of work tonight.


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