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Kid Nation...


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#1 of 92 OFFLINE   Chris

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Posted July 16 2007 - 12:24 PM

Gets off to a rather rocky start as some prepare to protest saying the show flouted child labor laws by having children work 7AM-10PM (and later) by saying it was not "work" but a CBS Sponsored "Summer Camp"

http://www.tvweek.co....kid_nation.php

After getting wind, New Mexico has closed the loophole CBS used to declare this a summer camp, making follow up seasons pretty unlikely.
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#2 of 92 OFFLINE   Chris Lockwood

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Posted July 16 2007 - 12:51 PM

Work is an interesting word here. Does this mean the people on Big Brother work 24 hours a day?

#3 of 92 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted July 16 2007 - 01:28 PM

Either way, I saw this show ending in catastrophe. I read "Lord of the Flies" in high school.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#4 of 92 OFFLINE   Chris

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Posted July 16 2007 - 01:49 PM

Adults, however, can consent to any agreement for their time and they are compensated as part of the agreement.

Kids in this case cannot give legal consent, and child labor laws are very different.
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#5 of 92 OFFLINE   Marty M

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Posted July 17 2007 - 02:01 AM

I am stunned that CBS has chosen this as the replacement for the Jericho time-slot. Just when I thought "reality" TV couldn't sink any lower....
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#6 of 92 OFFLINE   Alf S

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Posted July 17 2007 - 02:07 AM

This is defenitely on my "pass" list....ugh.
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#7 of 92 OFFLINE   Ethan Riley

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Posted July 17 2007 - 07:24 AM

I don't see why CBS has to contribute to the exploitation of minors in the name of entertainment. Because whatever this show SOUNDS like it is, I am sure it is NOT. For example, when "Survivor" was first announced, CBS made it sound like an almost serious documentary-style examination of diverse peoples learning to cooperate under extremely harsh conditions. That was supposedly the underlying message. What Survivor IS, is one-hour of bitching, back-stabbing and bullshit. It's totally irrelevant. The only entertainment value comes within the vicarious thrill of being able to "vote out" people that you don't like. (Would that we could all do THAT in our daily lives!)

So what's Kid Nation? A junior version of the typical reality show? I don't know if there's any process of elimination in this show (I'd be surprised if there wasn't), but I suppose the entertainment value this time will come up from the reasons the kids vote each other off. For example:

Host: So, kids, why did you vote Shelly out of the camp?

Answer: Because she's fat and she smells.

Well? Big surprise; that's exactly what kids would do and say. I can't "wait" for this piece of CBS reality trash.
 

 


#8 of 92 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted July 17 2007 - 09:31 AM

CBS has a perfectly capable ratings performer in "The Amazing Race" (which enjoyed strong ratings when it used to be on Wednesdays).

They are desperate to break the "old demo" perception that everyone has regarding their network.

If "Pirate Master" is any indication of CBS' recent reality fare, they are having a tough time finding fresh blood that is better than "Survivor," "Big Brother" or "The Amazing Race" (which I think are still all very strong reality series in terms of overall quality and appeal.)

Like "Pirate Master," "Kid Nation" was supposed to be a summer show, and it looks like a summer show.

"The Amazing Race" will probably be back by November in that timeslot.

#9 of 92 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted July 17 2007 - 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley
So what's Kid Nation? A junior version of the typical reality show? I don't know if there's any process of elimination in this show (I'd be surprised if there wasn't), but I suppose the entertainment value this time will come up from the reasons the kids vote each other off.

Kids decide if they want to leave themselves...they aren't "kicked off" or "voted out" like in other reality shows.

I know, it sounds lame.

#10 of 92 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted July 17 2007 - 09:45 PM

I love a good train wreck and this looks like a supertrain jumping it's rails.

And where exactly is this town? It looks like an old dusty wild west town.
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#11 of 92 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted July 17 2007 - 11:11 PM

I think accusations such as "exploitation" are irresponsible, until you've seen the series. People are so quick to rush to condemn; I wonder how these same people would feel when they are the target.

#12 of 92 OFFLINE   ChristopherG

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Posted July 18 2007 - 01:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
I think accusations such as "exploitation" are irresponsible, until you've seen the series. People are so quick to rush to condemn; I wonder how these same people would feel when they are the target.

Brian,

Why am I not surprised to see you rush in to defend the network...? I swear, given your consistency in this regard, if CBS came out with a series depicting the torture of small animals you would be using the same argument...

Did you even read the link that Chris provided?

Quote:
How’d they do it? By literally declaring the production a "summer camp" instead of a place of employment; by taking advantage of a loophole in New Mexico labor rules two months before the state legislature tightened the law, and using a ghost town that wasn’t exactly a ghost town.

and

Quote:
On July 1, New Mexico passed legislation closing a federal loophole that had exempted television and theatrical productions from child labor law restrictions.
"We didn’t have anything in our statutes that said they can’t work a child 10 hours a day, so we had hoped that [productions] would operate in the best interests and do what’s best for the children," said Tiffany Starr-Salcido, who specializes in child workplace rights at the New Mexico Department of Labor.

and

Quote:
On "Nation," kids were on camera from dawn till dusk, and then some.
"We would wake up the kids at 7 a.m. and were shooting them until sometimes midnight," said a member of the production crew.

How could any reasonable person read that and not think "exploitation"?
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#13 of 92 OFFLINE   Chris

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Posted July 18 2007 - 01:26 AM

It's OK, I was kind of waiting for Brian's defense of CBS policy. Posted Image

Regardless, the fact is this is a show that is now pretty cramped to one season. CBS filmed this in New Mexico to get around stricter child labor laws elsewhere. Now, in part due to this program, New Mexico has tightened the rules in their state. That means there is now no state that would permit this kind of filming.

Not saying it's exploitation. But I can't imagine this is good for the kids psyche. They've said that kids will "vote out" town members, etc.

Do I really want to watch the post interviews?

"Why did you vote out Mary?"
"Because she stinks and she's fat.."

I'm sure that kind of thiing is the heart of building character.
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#14 of 92 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted July 18 2007 - 04:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherG
Why am I not surprised to see you rush in to defend the network...? I swear, given your consistency in this regard, if CBS came out with a series depicting the torture of small animals you would be using the same argument...
That's outrageous, and inappropriate. You owe me an apology.

I will come to the defense of anyone unjustly accused. The show hasn't aired yet. The parent are MUCH more responsible for any exploitation they allowed happen to their children, yet you've said nothing against the parents. Gosh, I wonder why.

This is just another "let's bash the big company" thread. It's a craven habit, I feel: Don't wait to actually have enough information to support your accusations. And be sure to cast your accusations on the target that you can get the most buddies together to gang up on, instead of worrying about who is really at fault, if anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherG
Did you even read the link that Chris provided?
Yes, I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherG
How could any reasonable person read that and not think "exploitation"?
So in your quotes you provided evidence (1) that what they did was legal; (2) that what they did was legal; and (3) that there was filming going on.

You have used a legal term, "exploitation," which is inflammatory, but you don't have any way of backing up your accusation. So you surely should expect to be called-out on that!

#15 of 92 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted July 18 2007 - 05:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
It's OK, I was kind of waiting for Brian's defense of CBS policy. Posted Image
It isn't even policy. It's what they did. And what they did was legal, and for all we know it will make compelling television. And since it was legal, it is up to the parents of those children to (1) first determine if they wanted their children exposed to it, and (2) second to determine whether they felt what was being offered to them was exploitive towards their children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Regardless, the fact is this is a show that is now pretty cramped to one season.
I'm not sure the interest would have carried much beyond one season. Regardless, filming can be relocated to Mexico or the Caribbean to get around some of the issues, if need be. Or more likely, the format can be changed a bit to support filming in accordance with newly-imposed statutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Not saying it's exploitation.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
But I can't imagine this is good for the kids psyche.
Arguably, any exposure to the television industry can be conceived of as "not good for a child's psyche". Many child actors, employed fully in accordance with even the most stringent laws, become messed-up people, with clear indications that their fame and/or loss of fame and/or affluence significantly contributed to their problems. As a matter of fact, I suspect that there is far less "damage" being one of forty children filmed 16 hours a day than being one child, filmed as a lead, 6 hours a day, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
They've said that kids will "vote out" town members, etc.
No -- that's wrong. What they've said is, "There are no eliminations on KID NATION - you only go home if you want to."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I'm sure that kind of thiing is the heart of building character.
For all any of us actually know, the whole experience could be a substantially positive one for the vast majority of the children involved. That's the point. We haven't seen the show yet.

#16 of 92 OFFLINE   Patrick_S

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Posted July 18 2007 - 12:24 PM

This one was a BIG pass for me right from the start.

I don't need some snot nosed kids telling me how much my generation has f-upped everything and how they are going to do better.

I already get that for free from my newer and niece.

#17 of 92 OFFLINE   ChristopherG

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Posted July 18 2007 - 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian^K
You owe me an apology.
I will admit to being over enthusiastic in calling you out, but nothing more.

Just because something might be legal doesn't mean it can't be exploitive. I refer you to definition 2 and submit that it applies in this case.

ex·ploit2 Posted Image Posted ImagePosted Image /ɪkˈsplɔɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ik-sploit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1.to utilize, esp. for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.
2.to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3.to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.



Oh, yeah, the parents are morons too. Posted Image
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#18 of 92 OFFLINE   MishaLauenstein

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Posted July 18 2007 - 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley
Host: So, kids, why did you vote Shelly out of the camp?

Answer: Because she's fat and she smells.

Watch the preview on the CBS website.

Each 'week' the kids vote on which of them most deserves to get a large chunk of gold to put towards their schooling.
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#19 of 92 OFFLINE   Brian^K

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Posted July 18 2007 - 11:08 PM

http://www.ew.com/ew...0047148,00.html

Highlights:

"we did not give them a set schedule"

"there were ''hundreds'' of adults present on the set"

''There were pediatricians, child psychologists, and even animal wranglers standing back and watching to see if they had to step in if there was danger.... I think we were all a little shocked by how little we had to do for them.''

''We made the decision early on that we were going to give these kids an incredible experience. And the kids wanted it. These are leaders at home, who went to scout camps and participated model UNs.''

#20 of 92 OFFLINE   Chris

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Posted July 19 2007 - 01:49 AM

Highlight from that article for me:

Quote:
With the exception of gold-star winners, who were permitted a quick phoner with mom and pop, the kids weren't allowed to call or e-mail home. But every participant had the opportunity to quit if they wanted (Forman did say viewers will see some tots take a hike sometime in the season).

So, kids couldn't get to talk to their parents unless they one a competition. Or they could quit.

Look, there were tons of psychologists and things behind crap like Fox' 'Ugly Duckling" and "Marry a Millionaire" and they were still wrong.

These kids were all over-achievers, campers, etc. which means they were also very interested in proving they could do well.

As the article you post notes, CBS didn't consider them actors in any way, so who cares about their time schedule, no labor problem...

These are kids who, like all kids, wanted to prove their worth to their parents, etc. And I'm sure many / most of the parents went into this with good intentions.

While you're right to link the press conference comments, when you look at the flip-flops during it, who knows what was going on:

http://www.tvweek.co...._dont_need.php

And here's the part no one is really getting at. These are YOUNG kids. They will see themselves put on national TV. And maybe on some level they get it "oh, I'll be famous" but on other levels, they don't.

Production will undoubtly catch a child crying missing their family. A kid who gets hurt doing work. Backstabbing to get a job in their fake town. Complaints about honesty.

And kids will have all that aired while they are young enough that they will be returning back to middle school.

Sure, psychologically they were cool on the set. Hell, how many people had normal problems in middle school? Kids get to go back home and here "you are such the liar" "Crying for your mommie?" and other things from schoolyard mates who, already envious of their appearance on a show will relish the payback.

I'm sure there will be tons watching, but in general, a reality show involving kids younger then high school is in appropriate. No one has any idea the longterm impacts, and any psychiatrist or parent who says they do is a quack.
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