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Audioholics Article: 10 MORE Reasons Why HD-DVD Formats Have Already Failed


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#1 of 73 Paul Arnette

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Posted June 14 2007 - 05:56 AM

http://www.audioholi....-hd-dvd-failed

I can't really find anything in here that I disagree with.

Note: 'Success' as it is defined in this article is mass-adoption. I think that is important to keep in mind when reading it.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#2 of 73 Jason Roer

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Posted June 14 2007 - 06:46 AM

I LOVE this quote:

"To me this is a little like watching two third world countries battle for control over a section of desert."

I feel the same way, but could never quite articulate it so well. Posted Image

EDIT - having finished the article - I agree with everything he said. And Paul - you are right as well, regarding "success". Some day I hope to be right. Posted Image

Cheers,

Jason

#3 of 73 Paul Arnette

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Posted June 14 2007 - 06:55 AM

Just recently I saw another article that described it as "Two bald men fighting over a comb"! Posted Image I personally thought that one was a bit more amussing as it wass more colorful.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#4 of 73 ppltd

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Posted June 14 2007 - 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Roer
I LOVE this quote:

"To me this is a little like watching two third world countries battle for control over a section of desert."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
"Two bald men fighting over a comb"
Posted Image Perfect descriptions of this battle. Make it all look a little silly.
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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#5 of 73 Jason Roer

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Posted June 14 2007 - 07:18 AM

Two inmates fighting over fresh fish! Posted Image

Cheers,

Jason

#6 of 73 loganhunter2002

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Posted June 14 2007 - 08:55 AM

Wait. These guys are Audioholics!!! What do they know about video? Posted Image
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#7 of 73 Ryan Peddle

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Posted June 14 2007 - 08:57 AM

I first read the article and said here we go again, another BD Fanboy knocking down HDDVD. The title is poorly chosen.

But the article is excellently written and I couldn't agree more. One thing I don't understand is why on every HDDVD I own is there a promo for HDDVD....I already own the damn thing.

Wouldn't it be smarter to put this promo at the beginning of the DVD releases and show the people that buy the DVD what they are missing out on. Instead I am told about what I am not missing out on. Good one guys.

One thing I disagree with through is the comparison to SACD and DVD-Audio. Millions of the people in the world use and listen to CD where only 2 channels is available (ei in a discman with headphones or in your car) why in the world would the masses adopt to a new format that provided more channels. Plus most would agree the CD already sounded awesome.

SACD/DVDA tried to reinvent something that didn't need reinventing at all. Sure there is a place and a market for it. But there was no real reason to replace CD.

But HDDVD/BLURay are not necessarily trying to reinvent movies on optical disc, they are trying to improve it to the point of perfection. DVD's look and sound great...but as most of us have seen, now, there is a dramtic level of improvement available for the DVD format. I watched part of chicken little on bluray on a Samsung 1080p 42" LCD today at a local boutique store and it looked absolutely stunning....STUNNING. MIND BOGGLINGLY STUNNING. No DVD could ever look that good.

Do I see the HD formats being more than Niche...yes...but not for another year or too.

#8 of 73 Jason Roer

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Posted June 14 2007 - 09:18 AM

Ryan,

While I agree that comparing HD optical to SACD and DVD-Audio is poor at best, the fact remains that HD is not enough of a visual difference to MOST people. Certainly we couldn't live without it. I'll never go back now. But there isn't enough perceived enhancement to the masses for them to fork over even $300 for an HD-DVD player, let alone $500 for a Bluray.

That's the unfortunate truth. DVD is such a massive improvement over VHS, not only in quality, but in PQ not degrading over time, size of package (easier storage), etc - that the transition for the masses was much easier (although the masses really didn't get into the format until 5-7 years after its inception). And don't forget that the masses also don't have HDTVs. So they can't even enjoy the enhanced PQ if they wanted to. HDTVs in 25 million homes still isn't enough. And they are just getting used to DVDs. It's only been a few years for them. Give them time. And hope one of the optical formats becomes standard.

Cheers,

Jason

#9 of 73 Shane Martin

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Posted June 14 2007 - 11:13 AM

The only thing that matters is if the studios feel it's a success. They are the ones delivering the product.

#10 of 73 ppltd

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Posted June 14 2007 - 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Roer
That's the unfortunate truth. DVD is such a massive improvement over VHS, not only in quality, but in PQ not degrading over time, size of package (easier storage), etc - that the transition for the masses was much easier (although the masses really didn't get into the format until 5-7 years after its inception). And don't forget that the masses also don't have HDTVs. So they can't even enjoy the enhanced PQ if they wanted to. HDTVs in 25 million homes still isn't enough. And they are just getting used to DVDs. It's only been a few years for them. Give them time. And hope one of the optical formats becomes standard.

Cheers,

Jason
One of the reasons I jumped into collecting HD films as fast as I did was the near total lack of HD available any where else. All this money on display hardware and all I can watch is a couple of local channels in HD, or a few additional channels that Directv offered. Now, with almost 40 new HD channels (almost 20 movie channels) coming to DirecTV in September, and many more over the remainder of the year, I have to wonder just how much less the general public will care about these HD disk formats.

While the look of HD over Dish or DirecTV is not up to the same quality of HD or BD, it is fine for most, and it does deliver to the general public endless hours of High Def programming and movies, many titles that they will see a long time before that title ever gets released on High Def Disks.
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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#11 of 73 Jason Roer

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Posted June 14 2007 - 11:28 AM

I agree that it will be fine enough - but only for a rental model. I still feel the general public will demand some kind of hard copy now that they've been bitten by the collecting bug (due to DVD).

Of course they will have to be confident they are buying into a stable technology (HD-DVD, Bluray, or something else will have to be the ONLY format at the time) and they will have to be READY for the new technology - something they aren't currently because they've just accepted DVD.

Cheers,

Jason

#12 of 73 Marc Colella

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Posted June 14 2007 - 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle
One thing I disagree with through is the comparison to SACD and DVD-Audio. Millions of the people in the world use and listen to CD where only 2 channels is available (ei in a discman with headphones or in your car) why in the world would the masses adopt to a new format that provided more channels. Plus most would agree the CD already sounded awesome.

Actually, the major advantage of SACD/DVD-A is the High Resolution sound quality - the multichannel aspect is just extra icing. In fact, SACD was released without multichannel until a year or two later.
Just like many people who think CD already sounds awesome (and also have no problem with lesser quality in MP3) there are many who think DVD quality video and audio is great as it is.

For the most part I agree with the article, especially the mention that most people aren't going to notice much difference with HD. I come across people everyday who purchase a Nintendo Wii and are blown away with the graphics even though they were no better than the XBOX1 and are a far cry from the PS3 and 360. To most people, great quality is great quality... anything above that is overkill.

#13 of 73 ppltd

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Posted June 14 2007 - 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
For the most part I agree with the article, especially the mention that most people aren't going to notice much difference with HD. I come across people everyday who purchase a Nintendo Wii and are blown away with the graphics even though they were no better than the XBOX1 and are a far cry from the PS3 and 360. To most people, great quality is great quality... anything above that is overkill.
Very true. I have run into the same with many of my friends who have seen HD films on my HT. While they can notice a PQ difference, it is pretty much a hoo-hum attitude. AQ is even less noticeable to them. With this lack of enthusiasm I don't see a lot of hope for these formats taking off.
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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Pioneer VSX-94TXH, Panasonic PT-AE7000U 3D 1080p (PT-AE8000 Just Ordered, 

1124 BDs and going up, 1028 - DVDs and going down.


#14 of 73 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 14 2007 - 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
Very true. I have run into the same with many of my friends who have seen HD films on my HT. While they can notice a PQ difference, it is pretty much a hoo-hum attitude. AQ is even less noticeable to them. With this lack of enthusiasm I don't see a lot of hope for these formats taking off.

I think the HD formats will slowly make their way into people's homes when it becomes just as cheap, or close to it, to replace their existing equipment with HD equipment. Kind of like the slow replacement of rotary dial phones with push button.

Doug
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#15 of 73 Marc Colella

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Posted June 14 2007 - 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I think the HD formats will slowly make their way into people's homes when it becomes just as cheap, or close to it, to replace their existing equipment with HD equipment. Kind of like the slow replacement of rotary dial phones with push button.

The problem is that DVD players, DVD-ROM/DVD-RW drives and portable DVD players are still selling quite well. The more they continue to sell, the harder it is to penetrate the home video market with a new format - especially since the current format is still relatively new. It's great that the HD players can play their current collection of DVDs, but HDDVD and Blu-Ray movies won't play on DVD players. With more and more people purchasing a 2nd or even 3rd DVD player they lose that portability. That new HD movie won't play on the players in the bedroom, the kids room, notebook or even the portable DVD player in the minivan.

It's a tough sell especially for formats that don't offer much of an advantage over their current format. Also, are the manufacturers and studio's willing to lose money and wait many years for the small chance of another format to make their way into consumers homes?

#16 of 73 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 14 2007 - 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
The problem is that DVD players, DVD-ROM/DVD-RW drives and portable DVD players are still selling quite well. The more they continue to sell, the harder it is to penetrate the home video market with a new format - especially since the current format is still relatively new. It's great that the HD players can play their current collection of DVDs, but HDDVD and Blu-Ray movies won't play on DVD players. With more and more people purchasing a 2nd or even 3rd DVD player they lose that portability. That new HD movie won't play on the players in the bedroom, the kids room, notebook or even the portable DVD player in the minivan.

It's a tough sell especially for formats that don't offer much of an advantage over their current format. Also, are the manufacturers and studio's willing to lose money and wait many years for the small chance of another format to make their way into consumers homes?


I see your point, but what I'm saying is that as the prices come down, people will go into walmart and see a DVD player for $70 or an HD DVD player or a Blu-ray player for $150 or under. They think Hmmmmm thats not that much more. You'll start seeing people upgrading when its easy for them to do it.

This also illustrates the brilliance of Combo Discs.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers

#17 of 73 Jack _Webster

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Posted June 14 2007 - 05:23 PM

I tend to agree with this article mostly. I'm the proud owner of a new Sony Wega 46 inch HD LCD, and even I am planning on sticking with DVD as long as I can. I've been tempted of late to dip into HD-DVD or Blu-ray, but it's just not worth it for me. My dvds (when upconverted) look better than most HD broadcasts I watch (at least the better ones), so I'm not really unsatisfied with picture quality.

Sure, the detail of these formats would wow me, but in the end, I watch a movie for the movie. If I can't see every little hair strand, I'm not too upset. I'm sure that would change if I got into these formats, but why bother?

Not saying anything against those who have upgraded (more power to you - having more guts than I do), but I just think if someone like me is not willing to take the plunge, the majority of average folks might not be inclined either.

#18 of 73 loganhunter2002

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Posted June 15 2007 - 06:13 AM

Hey Jack. I like the chick. Who is that?
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#19 of 73 ReggieW

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Posted June 15 2007 - 09:17 AM

Loganhunter2002:

Are you serious!?!?
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#20 of 73 Ryan-G

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Posted June 15 2007 - 09:49 AM

Off the top of my head...(Refer to the article)

1. Seriously, the world was not ticking off the minutes until the players released, nor was the lack of 1080p on the very first headline news. This is like claiming HDTV was destined for failure because the first HDTV's didn't support 1080p.

2. Agree.

3. Ok, now show them Batman Begins on a 100" screen in 480i, then call me. Until you show them both, it's not a good comparision, because until people see directly the difference, they're going to be apathetic. The average person will happily sit in front of the speakers built into a TV, until you show them what having 5 speakers will do(The sub's kinda obvious).

4. This is a continuation of point 2, shouldn't be a seperate point.

5. Agree.

6. Grandfathering it in, and people pay alot more attention to their TV than their music. Once you get out of your teens and early tweens, music is alot less important, especially since the vast majority of new music is aimed at young crowds. I see Ipod's everywhere on campus, but go to my local mall and no one's wearing one.

Grandfathering will move HD formats in, assuming the bloody format war gets finished.

Too much emphasis is put on DVD-Audio, people simply don't spend nearly the time listening to music that they do watching TV.

7. I might agree with it being too fast, but again, put a 480i DVD on that 100" screen. Unfortunately, there's no 1080p "The Phantom Menace", I'll bet people would notice the difference very quickly.

8. Agree.

9. I'll have to think about this one, Media can have a drastic effect...

10. Neglects to consider the problems with Storage, Ownership, Server side storage, and concurrent capacity. Bandwidth isn't the only factor.

A few good points, a few not so good.


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