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Microsoft Confirms they don't want HD DVD or Blu-ray to survive!?


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#41 of 160 ONLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted June 13 2007 - 06:21 AM

Yes, that too.

Here's another one: since the invention and widespread use of the smilies, no-one laughs anymore themselves!



Cees

#42 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Yes, that too.

Here's another one: since the invention and widespread use of the smilies, no-one laughs anymore themselves!



Cees
I certainly hope this doesn't mean that with the growth of reproduction clinics, and artificial insemination we are looking at the loss of our.......Posted Image .<---Me, silently laughing..
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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#43 of 160 OFFLINE   Douglas Monce

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Posted June 13 2007 - 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
E-mail and memory sticks realized the totally paperless office (paper sales to offices have come to a dramatic fall since 1995, hardly any sold in fact; "letters" and "post-office" are words our children even don't know anymore).

Posted Image

Paperless office! Posted Image Been hearing that cry for the last 35 years!!! Too funny.
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#44 of 160 OFFLINE   Roberto Carlo

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Posted June 13 2007 - 10:44 AM

This is a fascinating thread. Whenever I read or hear tech company guys describe the future, Donald Fagen's I.G.Y. starts playing in my head.

Quote:
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Undersea by rail
Ninety minutes from New York to Paris
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A just machine to make big decisions
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision

They're so smitten by what they think they can do, they don't seem to ask themselves "do people really want smart coffee tables?" Likewise, they seem oblivious to the notion that people like, well, stuff: books, CDs, etc.
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#45 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Carlo
They're so smitten by what they think they can do, they don't seem to ask themselves "do people really want smart coffee tables?" Likewise, they seem oblivious to the notion that people like, well, stuff: books, CDs, etc.
Ain't that the truth.
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#46 of 160 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:05 PM

Bill Hunt's response to RDoherty (Richard E. Doherty - Microsoft / AACS Insider):
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDoherty
Originally Posted by RDoherty
I find Bill Hunt's column to be wildly interpretive, biased, and wrong. Microsoft is dedicated to making sure HD-DVD is a fully successful next-generation optical format, and to infer diabolical intent is insulting to the very large number of employees who are dedicating their entire working life to HD-DVD's technical and business success.
Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
Richard, no offense, but this is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. As a paid employee of Microsoft, one of HD-DVD's chief corporate supporters, your job is to promote your company's interests, one of which Microsoft claims to be HD-DVD. Don't talk to me about bias. At least I'm not getting paid for my opinions.

I'm hardly inferring diabolical intent to Microsoft. However, this would not be the first time that a corporation, to further its own interests, acted strategically in the marketplace in a way that wasn't in the interests of consumers. Microsoft doesn't make movies or TV shows, it doesn't make home theater/video hardware. I simply find it more than a little odd that you're fueling a home entertainment format war in which you would seem to have little stake on the surface.

Looking deeper, however, it seems to me that Microsoft has plenty at stake in this format war. Was it that Microsoft supported HD-DVD because of HDi interactivity or VC-1, or rather was it because Blu-ray used BD-Java instead, and because Sony was building Blu-ray capability into the PS3, a directly competing game platform to Microsoft's Xbox 360? Or was it because, by your own admission, Microsoft believes the future of all home entertainment media is downloading? It seems to me that your company has plenty of reasons to get involved in the format war, having to do with its business interests, and little to do with the actual interests of film and home theater enthusiasts at places like AVS Forum. In any case, it's our belief that your company has little interest in next generation HD optical discs becoming a thriving market. Because what’s ACTUALLY good for that market is NOT TO HAVE A FORMAT WAR. What's actually good for all the enthusiasts here at AVS, is for there to be A SINGLE UNIFIED FORMAT. This format war did NOT have to happen, and I don’t recall Microsoft doing much to try to stop it.

I have no doubt that there are many good people working on HD-DVD at Microsoft. Don't turn this into some kind of political pissing contest please. What, are you going to say I'm insulting the troops in Iraq next? Give me a break. This isn't personal. Nonetheless, it's our belief at The Digital Bits that without Microsoft's involvement, this format war would have been over by now. We stand by that belief.

As for some (certainly not all) of you guys here at AVS Forum, it would be nice if you'd stop making this personal, stop with the trash talking and backstabbing and name calling of each other, and try to do something positive to end this format war. I didn't CARE which format won this thing when it started, as long as the war ended quickly and one format actually had the chance to thrive. But we've chosen sides now because this thing has just going on too damn long. Perhaps I'm not looking deep enough, but most of what I've seen from you guys here is an endless parade of discussion threads in which you lambast each other for having chosen different formats, and make smarmy personal comments about anyone who doesn't agree with you. Meanwhile, this format war drags on, and every day it continues on, the chance of either format thriving in the long terms evaporates a little bit more. Did no one here learn anything from DVD vs Divx or from DVD-Audio vs SACD? Unless you guys all really do want to see discs die and downloading take off. But believe this: The day downloading becomes the norm, you can forget about even the smallest semblence of ownership of the movies you buy. You won't even have a physical copy anymore. And you can forget about the kind of thoughtful, in-depth special editions that we've all enjoyed over the last ten years, because the economics won't be there anymore to support their creation. I can tell you this for sure: there aren't a lot of DVD producers who are excited about an all downloading future. I find it deeply disappointing that the film and home theater enthusiast market would be willing to sacrifice discs for downloads. If and when that happens, it'll be a very sad day for us all.
link

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#47 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
Bill Hunt's response to RDoherty (Richard E. Doherty - Microsoft / AACS Insider):
Link

link

Paul
Posted Image Hunt does it again. Posted Image Just what I like to see, well reasoned thought process...Posted Image

Quote:
As a paid employee of Microsoft, one of HD-DVD's chief corporate supporters, your job is to promote your company's interests, one of which Microsoft claims to be HD-DVD. Don't talk to me about bias. At least I'm not getting paid for my opinions.
Say what!!!! Digital Bits does not accept advertisement revenues???? It is a completly free site? Of course you get paid for your opinions. Just a little less direct.
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#48 of 160 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:30 PM

RDoherty Response to Bill's Response:



RDoherty 06-13-07 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
Robert, no offense, but this is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. As a paid employee of Microsoft, one of HD-DVD's chief corporate supporters, your job is to promote your company's interests, one of which Microsoft claims to be HD DVD. Don't talk to me about bias. At least I'm not getting paid for my opinions.


My name's Richard, by the way. And thanks for the detailed response you give here.

My job is certainly to promote my company's interests, and my bias is well understood: Microsoft is an entrenched and extremely active supporter of HD DVD. I trust there is no misunderstanding about our position.

Unfortunately, I don't believe you were able to attend the event -- I would hope when you had seen some of the related comments in context you would not have interpreted the quotes as you did. Where you made conclusions about our corporate strategy, I can assure you that your conclusions are incorrect.

Quote:
I'm hardly inferring diabolical intent to Microsoft. However, this would not be the first time that a corporation, to further its own interests, acted strategically in the marketplace in a way that wasn't in the interests of consumers.


I am telling you point blank your conclusion is wrong. We are doing all we can to make sure HD DVD is successful by making sure it is the best possible product it can be.

Quote:
Looking deeper, however, it seems to me that Microsoft has plenty at stake in this format war. Was it that Microsoft supported HD DVD because of HDi interactivity or VC-1, or rather was it because Blu-ray used BD-Java instead, and because Sony was building Blu-ray capability into the PS3, a directly competing game platform to Microsoft's Xbox 360? Or was it because, by your own admission, Microsoft believes the future of all home entertainment media is downloading? It seems to me that your company has plenty of reasons to get involved in the format war, having to do with its business interests, and little to do with the actual interests of film and home theater enthusiasts at places like AVS Forum.


Microsoft is deeply committed to making sure that HD DVD provides the best possible consumer experience. Please peruse other parts of AVS Forum, where Amir and Ben Waggoner detail at length about the extreme effort we are putting in to ensure the best possible video compressions. We do similar efforts to improve the interactive experiences on HD DVD with HDi, and we think have produced some really innovative results . We have the Xbox 360 product, which is selling very well, and in fact this week has a number of additional promotions that make it an even better value.

We would love the opportunity to come see you in person and discuss and detail all that we are doing for HD DVD, and why we think it is the best format for consumers -- particularly home theater enthusiasts.

Quote:
Because what’s ACTUALLY good for that market is NOT TO HAVE A FORMAT WAR. What's actually good for all the enthusiasts here at AVS, is for there to be A SINGLE UNIFIED FORMAT. This format war did NOT have to happen, and I don’t recall Microsoft doing much to try to stop it.


I disagree that Microsoft has the power to end this format war. And it's not necessarily true that the format war has been universally bad, particularly for consumers: I believe the formats (both specifications and titles) have competed on functionality and features, and I certainly believe the low hardware prices we are seeing today is directly due to competition.

Quote:
I have no doubt that there are many good people working on HD DVD at Microsoft. Don't turn this into some kind of political pissing contest please. What, are you going to say I'm insulting the troops in Iraq next? Give me a break. This isn't personal.


Then I apologize to you -- I felt insulted. As I said in my fist reply to this thread, Microsoft continues to be committed to the success of HD DVD. The reporter's quotes were quite out of context, but I felt your interpretation of those comments to deduce our corporate intent were, as I said, wildly interpretative and wrong. In addition, the interpretation of the quotes seemed to me to be so far out of whack that it felt to me to be a biased -- there was, for example, no matching call to Sony to change their position on Blu-ray.

Let me be crystal clear: We actively support and do whatever we can to make sure HD DVD is the best product that it can be. We of course have other businesses that utilize other delivery formats, but they are not intended to compete with optical delivery. We can not predict the future, and do not know when, if ever, other forms of content delivery will overtake optical.

Quote:
I can tell you this for sure: there aren't a lot of DVD producers who are excited about an all downloading future. I find it deeply disappointing that the film and home theater enthusiast market would be willing to sacrifice discs for downloads. If and when that happens, it'll be a very sad day for us all.


Another clarification from the article: I never intended to imply that digital downloads are intended to replace optical or other delivery methods. Indeed I would expect them to continue in parallel for a very long time, as there are consumers who prefer one delivery method over the other.
Link

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#49 of 160 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:39 PM

Bill is just digging himself a hole here, and he should just stop.
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#50 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:40 PM

Paul, thanks for posting Richard's reasoned response to Bill's tirade. I guess it is the difference between a paid professional and an unpaid amateur. It is refreshing to see the level of openness MS is seemingly showing in their response.
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#51 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Bill is just digging himself a hole here, and he should just stop.
My opinion of the man is lessening with every post he makes. Bill's wearing his bias like a badge on his shirt and still wants his readers to believe he will continue unbiased commentary. At least we understand what Richard's agenda is as it is not hidden but out in the open.
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#52 of 160 OFFLINE   Marc Colella

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Posted June 13 2007 - 12:45 PM

The more Bill rants the sillier he sounds.

All this debating and arguing over formats that will be nothing but a niche product anyways. In a few years we'll all look back and laugh at the battles over such a small market, much like the look back at the DVD-A/SACD wars.

#53 of 160 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 13 2007 - 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
All this debating and arguing over formats that will be nothing but a niche product anyways.
Many people, myself included, wanted the HD market to grow comparably to the DVD market. We want ALL our favorite films in HD and we are as impatient as a child at christmas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
In a few years we'll all look back and laugh at the battles over such a small market, much like the look back at the DVD-A/SACD wars.
Looking back at DVD-A/SACD is very sad for me and I don't see a difference with HD at the moment.Posted Image

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#54 of 160 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 13 2007 - 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
Many people, myself included, wanted the HD market to grow comparably to the DVD market. We want ALL our favorite films in HD and we are as impatient as a child at christmas.
Yes we are, aren't we.
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#55 of 160 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted June 13 2007 - 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
Many people, myself included, wanted the HD market to grow comparably to the DVD market. We want ALL our favorite films in HD and we are as impatient as a child at christmas.

Paul

You can forget this ever happening as long as there are two formats. People can defend MS all they want but thanks to them these formats will bleed themselves out and never come close to attaining the market penetration that one format could have attained.

B. Hunt comes down on the side of Blu-ray and he is a biased amateur. R. Doherty comes down on the side of HD DVD and all of sudden he is a professional with a reasoned and sensible argument. :puke:
I'll take the biased amateur over a paid spin doctor any time.

As for MS wanting HD DVD to be a success....sure they do. They want it to be just successful enough to keep the war going, because the longer the war continues the more irrelevant these formats will become. However, MS comes out the winner because they will be honing their compression techniques for their vaunted download model.....DIVX minus the disc. MS intends to succeed where Circuit City failed.

I'm sure SONY also would like to have a successful DIVX style download model, but unlike MS they also have a need to have an optically based HD format succeed, because they have a huge investment into the development of thatl HD format. What investment does MS have into the development of HD hardware? They have zero invested, so what do they care if both formats stagnate? Stagnation actually works in their favour, because it is all about checkmating SONY. AFAIAC, MS doesn't give two shits about the success of optically based HD.....no matter what their paid dog barks.
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#56 of 160 OFFLINE   Douglas Monce

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Posted June 13 2007 - 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
You can forget this ever happening as long as there are two formats. People can defend MS all they want but thanks to them these formats will bleed themselves out and never come close to attaining the market penetration that one format could have attained.


I'm not sure either format would have DVD like success even if there were no war. It seems to me that the general public is fairly unimpressed with HD and doesn't see a need to change from DVD. At least not if they have to spend lots of money to do it.

I suppose if you could buy a high def player for the same price as a SD player people might start adopting it just because they can. But until that point it's going to be very slow going.

Honestly I don't know why anyone is surprised by the slow adoption of high def players, considering most households DON'T have an HDTV in the first place. That is slowly changing but it's going to take time.

Doug
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#57 of 160 OFFLINE   Chris S

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Posted June 13 2007 - 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Clearly wrong, wrong, wrong!

You had me going there for a second! After one short sentence I was ready to throw down, already forming a new argument. Good thing I kept reading. Posted Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Here's another one: since the invention and widespread use of the smilies, no-one laughs anymore themselves!

Posted Image
This one actually made my laugh out loud which in turn maybe me laugh again!
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#58 of 160 OFFLINE   Chris S

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Posted June 13 2007 - 04:19 PM

Call me a Hunt apologist but I think he's right. To be more specific:
  • Firstly, and MOST importantly, this shouldn't be personal. It's a hobby. Enjoy it!
  • I too find it odd that Microsoft is involved in a home theater format war in which they have little at stake (no movies, TV, audio/video equipment, etc). They do have a business interest in seeing the PS3 fail which could be a driving force in competing with Blu-ray but what they do there may be, and I believe is, in direct contrast to the interest of home theater consumers. To quote Bill directly; "It seems to me that [Microsoft] has plenty of reasons to get involved in the format war, having to do with its business interests, and little to do with the actual interests of film and home theater enthusiasts at places like AVS Forum."
  • A single format is in the best interest of consumers to encourage long term growth. And while I agree with the counter point that competition so far has been good for bringing down hardware prices I don't see that as sustainable. There is only so far those prices will fall before it's not profitable for manufactures to still be in the market, in which case the formats die.
  • I don't care which format "wins" the war. And at this moment I don't think there will be a winner. But if there is then take your pick, either one is good with me.
  • I think Blu-ray currently stands a better chance of succeeding long term over HD DVD. And that's not a dig against HD DVD.
  • "I find it deeply disappointing that the film and home theater enthusiast market would be willing to sacrifice discs for downloads. If and when that happens, it'll be a very sad day for us all." Nothing more I can say about that.
  • People who enjoy either HD DVD or Blu-ray and don't want to buy the other format shouldn't feel they have to. Again, enjoy these formats, but understand long term competing formats is most likely not a good thing. Only time will tell.
Bill's fighting an impossible fight and I give him all the credit in the world for it. He apparently feels deeply that what he is doing is in all of our best interest and I simply can't fault him for that. Even if he had picked HD DVD I still would commend him for trying to do what he feels is in our hobby's best interest.

It was also good to see him stick around on AVS and tackle some of the replies from other members. That certainly should be commended (especially on AVS).
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#59 of 160 OFFLINE   ReggieW

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Posted June 13 2007 - 10:23 PM

Where's Fox Mulder when you need him.

Bill WAS not right.

Mr. Doherty responded to Hunt's tirade after he drew forgone conclusions from a statement which was taken out of context. In Bill's response to Doherty, he never did acknowledge this simple fact. This is how this mess started in the first place. What I find so appaling, is that the person quoted has taken the time to clarify his statements and explain what he exactly said in the proper context, and people are still "crowing" (As Hunt likes to put it) on about the Trilateral Comm....Uh, sorry, I meant "Microsoft" and it's attempt to derail optical media. I'm sorry, but Mr. Doherty's response was very reasonable and made sense to me.

The MS conspiracy is becoming tiresome. I think in all fairness, the people making these claims should provide some empirical evidence to back up these assertions or give it a rest. I'm sorry, but we appear to be going in circles with this. There is something very essential missing in the uproar over MS:

Namely EVIDENCE.
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#60 of 160 OFFLINE   Chris S

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Posted June 13 2007 - 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
The MS conspiracy is becoming tiresome. I think in all fairness, the people making these claims should provide some empirical evidence to back up these assertions or give it a rest. I'm sorry, but we appear to be going in circles with this. There is something very essential missing in the uproar over MS:

Namely EVIDENCE.

Well that's definitely a problem. Given no hard facts, like some internal MS document stating specifically their intent, all that is left is to make conjecture's about their intentions based on past actions. To believe either side then requires some level of trust. I put more trust in Mr Hunt then I do Mr. Doherty / Microsoft. Obviously others do the opposite.
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