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Normalization +4 ...........what does this mean?


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#1 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 04:02 AM

I don't remember seeing this on my Denon that I just replaced. On my Marantz SR8500, when I play certain movies and engage the DD surround, it displays a quick note that says "Normalization +4".

Sometimes its -2 or +3 and even had one that was -27. Is this the center channel level that I need to re-adjust for each movie? My manual doesn't mention this anywhere. I remember years ago reading something about this but I just now getting back into the Home Theater Hobbie mode again.

#2 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 08:54 AM

I don't remember seeing this on my Denon that I just replaced. On my Marantz SR8500, when I play certain movies and engage the DD surround, it displays a quick note that says "Normalization +4".

Sometimes its -2 or +3 and even had one that was -27. Is this the center channel level that I need to re-adjust for each movie? My manual doesn't mention this anywhere. I remember years ago reading something about this but I'm just now getting back into the Home Theater Hobbie mode again.

#3 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 07 2007 - 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentSP
I don't remember seeing this on my Denon that I just replaced. On my Marantz SR8500, when I play certain movies and engage the DD surround, it displays a quick note that says "Normalization +4".

Sometimes its -2 or +3 and even had one that was -27. Is this the center channel level that I need to re-adjust for each movie? My manual doesn't mention this anywhere. I remember years ago reading something about this but I just now getting back into the Home Theater Hobbie mode again.


It sounds like the level of dialog normalization that has been applied to the DD track. It effects the whole track not just the center channel. -27 is the default setting on most Dolby encoders.

doug
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#4 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
It sounds like the level of dialog normalization that has been applied to the DD track. It effects the whole track not just the center channel. -27 is the default setting on most Dolby encoders.

doug

So when I see this displayed during a movie, what am I supposed to adjust?

#5 of 35 Cees Alons

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Posted June 07 2007 - 09:38 AM

If the receiver doesn't do it for you by itself, the volume dial will - turned manually.

Does your receiver have a setting for it (like Dial Normalization "Off" or "Auto")?


Cees

#6 of 35 Steve Schaffer

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Posted June 07 2007 - 02:43 PM

A + number will make the sound a bit louder, a minus number will make it less loud, just adjust the master volume either with the knob on the receiver or with the remote if it's too loud or too soft. One of my local tv stations had DialNorm at something like +41 (excruciatingly loud) for a month after starting their digital broadcast, took a local e-mail campaign to get them to fix it.
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#7 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schaffer
A + number will make the sound a bit louder, a minus number will make it less loud, just adjust the master volume either with the knob on the receiver or with the remote if it's too loud or too soft. One of my local tv stations had DialNorm at something like +41 (excruciatingly loud) for a month after starting their digital broadcast, took a local e-mail campaign to get them to fix it.

What I don't understand is what is the standard volume setting to go + or - from? My system is level calibrated at 80db on all channels but I have no idea where that should be set during a movie. I just set it to where I think sounds comfortable during a movie.

#8 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
If the receiver doesn't do it for you by itself, the volume dial will - turned manually.

Does your receiver have a setting for it (like Dial Normalization "Off" or "Auto")?


Cees

No the manual doesn't mention anything about Normalization that I could find.

#9 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 07 2007 - 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
It sounds like the level of dialog normalization that has been applied to the DD track. It effects the whole track not just the center channel. -27 is the default setting on most Dolby encoders.

doug


So do you mean -27 is the standard volume setting for DD and if it displays "Normalization +6" I should then adjust the overall volume up +6db to -21? If this is the case then what is the standard volume setting for DTS?

#10 of 35 troy evans

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Posted June 07 2007 - 08:07 PM

The volumn control on Your receiver,if You turn it one way or the other,You'll notice it goes from "oo"at its lowest setting(on this side you're in the - range) than it goes to "0" and on up to its highest capability(on this side you're in the + range).Now,I calibrate My system at the "0"setting.It can be a little loud,but,I only set My system with My SPL at this level which to my understanding is the Reference Level.I play My movies and shows on DVD back at around -15 to-10. I find this setting is best for Me.To answer You're question,I always thought DialNorm+ or -was referring to the reference level setting.I could be very wrong.In any case,if You set Your system at reference"0"and You have the DialNorm feature in Your receiver just turn it on.It'll do the adjustments for You.Also,make sure Your volumn control is set to read at the "relative" setting not the "absolute"setting.You can change that in Your receivers setup menu.Hope this helps in some way.Please note, I don't recommened once You set Your system at reference that You listen at that level where as it can be very loud.
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#11 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 07 2007 - 08:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentSP
So do you mean -27 is the standard volume setting for DD and if it displays "Normalization +6" I should then adjust the overall volume up +6db to -21? If this is the case then what is the standard volume setting for DTS?

There is no standard setting other than if you want to get a DB meter and make sure your not doing damage to your hearing. All DN does is to make sure that average sounds of any Dolby Digital program will be at the same level as other Dolby Digital programs.

So in other words say you are watching a TV show. You have the volume set at a particular level because that’s where its comfortable to listen to the Dialog. Other sounds like gunshots might be louder, but most of the material is around the level of the Dialog. But now the commercial comes on and everything is at the level of the gunshot! You have to fumble for the remote to hit the mute.

With Dolby Digital using DN the level of that commercial will be brought down to the level of the Dialog of the program you are watching. DN doesn't effect the dynamic range of the program nor does it ever adjust the volume with in the program. It only makes sure that the average volume of all DD material is the same.

By the way a DN setting of -27 DB means that the dialog is 27 db below the loudest sounds in the program. This is the standard setting for feature films.

Oh and reference level is VERY loud so unless you have forgiving neighbors I wouldn't play it at that volume.

Hope that helps explain what it's supposed to do. So set the volume where you like it and don't worry about the Normalization setting.

Doug

Edit: The Digital Video Essentials test tones are all recorded with a DN setting of -27.
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#12 of 35 Cees Alons

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Posted June 07 2007 - 08:52 PM

Quote:
Oh and reference level is VERY loud so unless you have forgiving neighbors I wouldn't play it at that volume.
Oh, and no need at all, BTW, to worry about your hearing: after listening to reference level for some time you will notice how the whole world (including your speakers) automatically will have quieted down so very much....
Isn't nature grand? Posted Image


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#13 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 07 2007 - 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Oh, and no need at all, BTW, to worry about your hearing: after listening to reference level for some time you will notice how the whole world (including your speakers) automatically will have quieted down so very much....
Isn't nature grand? Posted Image


Cees

Yeah and whats that high pitched howl you hear all the time??? Hmmmmmmm
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#14 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 08 2007 - 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
.

Oh and reference level is VERY loud so unless you have forgiving neighbors I wouldn't play it at that volume.


....and what is the reference level setting? I mean I know what it means but what is the volume setting? oo?

#15 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 08 2007 - 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy evans
The volumn control on Your receiver,if You turn it one way or the other,You'll notice it goes from "oo"at its lowest setting(on this side you're in the - range) than it goes to "0" and on up to its highest capability(on this side you're in the + range).Now,I calibrate My system at the "0"setting.It can be a little loud,but,I only set My system with My SPL at this level which to my understanding is the Reference Level.I play My movies and shows on DVD back at around -15 to-10. I find this setting is best for Me.To answer You're question,I always thought DialNorm+ or -was referring to the reference level setting.I could be very wrong.In any case,if You set Your system at reference"0"and You have the DialNorm feature in Your receiver just turn it on.It'll do the adjustments for You.Also,make sure Your volumn control is set to read at the "relative" setting not the "absolute"setting.You can change that in Your receivers setup menu.Hope this helps in some way.Please note, I don't recommened once You set Your system at reference that You listen at that level where as it can be very loud.

When I use the test tone on my Marantz for setting the levels with my SPL meter I believe its set to oo by default is this correct?

#16 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 08 2007 - 12:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentSP
....and what is the reference level setting? I mean I know what it means but what is the volume setting? oo?

You would have to use a decibel meter in your home theater setting. Use reference tones played back on your system, then adjust the volume to get a particular level on the meter. Off the top of my head I don't know what the reading on the meter is supposed to be at reference level.

Doug
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#17 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 08 2007 - 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentSP
When I use the test tone on my Marantz for setting the levels with my SPL meter I believe its set to oo by default is this correct?

That could be. But the test tones should be coming from your source equipment IE a DVD in your DVD player. There could be differences between your Marantz's built in test tones and real world signals coming from your player.
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#18 of 35 BrentSP

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Posted June 08 2007 - 01:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
That could be. But the test tones should be coming from your source equipment IE a DVD in your DVD player. There could be differences between your Marantz's built in test tones and real world signals coming from your player.

Ok that makes sense. I always thought it was better to use the receivers test tones but using the test tones through the DVD actually makes more sense since thats where 99% of my listening material will be coming from anyways. So let me see if I have this correct. I would use my calibration DVD like this one....

Posted Image

.....and then set the volume to "00" and set each channel volume to 75db or 80db? (I believe DD is 75 and DTS is 80)

#19 of 35 Douglas Monce

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Posted June 08 2007 - 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentSP
Ok that makes sense. I always thought it was better to use the receivers test tones but using the test tones through the DVD actually makes more sense since thats where 99% of my listening material will be coming from anyways. So let me see if I have this correct. I would use my calibration DVD like this one....

Posted Image

.....and then set the volume to "00" and set each channel volume to 75db or 80db? (I believe DD is 75 and DTS is 80)


That sounds right to me. The calibration DVD should have instructions for what levels you should be seeing on your meter. I know the DVE disc does.

Doug
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#20 of 35 troy evans

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Posted June 08 2007 - 06:05 AM

My question is are You hearing any sound at oo?Since that should be the lowest you can set your receiver I'm not sure setting it there would be correct.I did see where you stated Your test tones default to that.I'm not sure why that would happen.If You're using your system with the volumn setting at "absolute" instead of"relative"Your volumn control reads from "0"to 165 or so in which case to set at reference You need to turn the volumn between 81 to 83.This is where the reference level will be.Again,You only use this to setup your system do not listen to it here.Doug is right,using a setup disc will yield far better results than your receivers test tones.You will have to toggle between them and your receivers tones.Just make sure when You take Your reading for adjustment it's coming from the dvd not the receiver.I use My SPL set to 75db.There's nothing wrong with 80db,I was just always told to use 75db.My receiver when setting test tones defaults to oo in "relative volumn and 81 in "absolute"volumn.I use an Onkyo 701.
" I think it's time we go to plan B". "What's plan B?" "That's the one where we don't do something stupid".


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