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Caution: HDMI 1.3 - one chip is obsolete and one has Advanced audio capability.


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15 replies to this topic

#1 of 16 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 01 2007 - 11:54 AM

Support for the latest high-quality audio formats, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

June 1, 2007 updated information Per (dr1394 -CE Insider and Compression engineer):
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394
The Si9133 is obsolete. It has been replaced with the Si9135, which is High Bitrate Audio capable.
Link


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394
HDMI 1.3a is not specifically required for High Bitrate Audio. HDMI 1.3 will suffice.
Link




The Si9133 (Receiver chip), is being replaced with the Si9135 (Receiver chip), which is High Bitrate Audio Capable.
The obsolete Si9133, "advanced dual-input HDMI receiver chip" will only enable HDTVs to display Deep color.


For Advanced audio bitstream transmission, you will need both the Si9134 & Si9135 chips in your system.
The Si9134 chip for transmission of the bitstream output of the Blu-ray/HD DVD player and the Si9135 chip to receive the bitstream and process the High Bitrate Audio in your receiver/processor.
Link

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#2 of 16 OFFLINE   Jason Harbaugh

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Posted June 01 2007 - 01:30 PM

Pardon my french, but fuck HDMI and their constant revisions, incompatibilities, handshaking (or lack there of), sparkles, disconnects, and every other inconvenience it has caused. I thought the whole point was to have one common connection standard for both video and audio, but with the number of variations that HDMI has created, I would much prefer the old 2 cable approach. At least they always worked.

#3 of 16 OFFLINE   Craig_Ehr

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Posted June 02 2007 - 12:09 PM

How does this affect the Si9132 chip in the PS3? Can anybody confirm whether or not it has the same functionality as the Si9134 to output DD TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (assuming we ever get a firmware update to allow bitstream out - and no, I am not concerned here with in-player decoding to LPCM)?

Also, does anybody know what HDMI 1.3 chipset the Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver has? Thanks.

#4 of 16 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 02 2007 - 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig_Ehr
How does this affect the Si9132 chip in the PS3? Can anybody confirm whether or not it has the same functionality as the Si9134 to output DD TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (assuming we ever get a firmware update to allow bitstream out - and no, I am not concerned here with in-player decoding to LPCM)?
It now looks like the PS3 doesn't have the spec/option to transmit the DD TrueHD and the DTS_HD MA bitsreams and it ironically took an HD DVD insider to tell us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
...............Problem is, HDMI org until recently, highly promoted the optional features of the standard causing people for example to think every PS3 supports transmission of advanced codecs which we know now it does not.
Link - Keep in mind that Amir is a Microsoft (HD DVD insider).

The PS3 still maybe able to output 8ch LPCM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek
I have not tested it, but the PS3 should fully support up to 8ch LPCM or 8ch Dolby THD decoding to 8ch LPCM.
Link - Keep in mind that paidgeek is a Sony Pictures (BD Insider) and doesn't refute what Amir posted two posts earlier in the same AVS thread - (Referring to PS3 not supporting advanced codec bitstreams in Amir's quote above).

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#5 of 16 OFFLINE   Craig_Ehr

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Posted June 02 2007 - 06:50 PM

Thanks for the response, Paul.

#6 of 16 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 04 2007 - 04:21 AM

Paul, thanks for the quotes. These quotes point out why we can not fully rely on company spokesmen for information. Both quotes from Amirm and Paidgeek are factorially right, but are both wrong, as they supply only part of the facts.

The fact is the PS3 should be able to support the decoded lossless audio tracks as PCM, and the fact is that the PS3 can not pass non-decoded lossless tracks. Interesting how these spokemen can pick and choose the facts they want to make a point, while missing the full picture.

Again, thanks for the quotes.
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#7 of 16 OFFLINE   Jason Harbaugh

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Posted June 04 2007 - 06:07 AM

Now if we can only get the PS3 to decode DTS-HD MA. Patiently waiting for firmware update Sony. Posted Image

HDMI as a whole still pisses me off though. Posted Image

#8 of 16 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted June 06 2007 - 05:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
Paul, thanks for the quotes. These quotes point out why we can not fully rely on company spokesmen for information. Both quotes from Amirm and Paidgeek are factorially right, but are both wrong, as they supply only part of the facts.

The fact is the PS3 should be able to support the decoded lossless audio tracks as PCM, and the fact is that the PS3 can not pass non-decoded lossless tracks. Interesting how these spokemen can pick and choose the facts they want to make a point, while missing the full picture.

Again, thanks for the quotes.
Without addressing a complete inability to pass the codec, paidgeek had been suggesting for some time that internal decoding was the best solution for the PS3. Whenever the issue came up. Looking back I guess one could say it was a soft denial of the passthrough ability.

Well, more and more people seem to indicate receiver decoding might not be viable for that many titles anyway (which makes you wonder about the HDMI 1.3 hubbub and the receivers with that capability) if indeed most titles will be authored in "advanced" mode, so I hope we'll see some players with decoding in the near future.

It seems to be coming to fruition rather quickly that the PS3 will be one of the more expensive HD solutions; so hopefully, DTS-HD decoding will come to fruition as well.
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#9 of 16 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 06 2007 - 05:57 PM

More information regarding the possibility (if any) of a tranmission of a DTS-HD MA bitstream from the PS3, explained by "FilmMixer", a Film Sound and Post Production Insider & Re-Recording Mixer in Studio City, CA.
Link
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer's AVS thread #260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solo88
The quotes were actually up on HTF, which is where I thought I saw my answer.

I understand paidgeek's response about uncompressed.

I also know that the PS3 currently does not support transmission of the compressed bitstreams. What I wanted to know was if the chip in the PS3 (9132?) truly makes this transmission impossible, or if the ability simply hasn't been enabled. I'm guessing the former.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
Would it be correct to say that both the TrueHD lossless bitstream and the DTS lossless compressed audio streams cannot be transmitted from the PS3, unless it would have at least, the Si9134 transmission chip?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer
I copied this from a reply I posted in another thread:

The PS3 is a trickier issues than silicon, although that is probably going to be a mitigating factor... since ther is no DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out logo on the PS3, I would imagine that Sony hasn't paid for or implimented the proper DTS license, and enableing this feature, if physically possible for the unit to do with it's HDMI transmitter chip, would be a violation of their DTS licensing agreement....

It's the same thing Sony does for SACD (i.e. no license, no play).

Here are the logos for Digital Pass Through (note there are similar license requirements for decoders):

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer

DTS Pass Through Logos

DTS-HD 2.0 + Advanced Digital Out™

DTS-HD 2.0 + Advanced Digital Out denotes the dual ability to output DTS-HD Master Audio streams to an external decoder such as an A/V receiver or pre-amp/processor as well as output DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 Lossless channels directly to a TV or external amplifier through analog outputs. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out™

DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out denotes the ability to output DTS-HD Master Audio streams to an external decoder such as an A/V receiver or pre-amp/processor. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS-HD 2.0 + Digital Out™

DTS-HD 2.0+ Digital Out denotes the dual ability to output DTS-HD High Resolution Audio streams to an external decoder such as an A/V receiver or pre-amp/processor as well as output DTS-HD High Resolution Audio 2.0 channels directly to a TV or external amplifier through analog outputs. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS-HD Digital Out™

DTS-HD Digital Out denotes the ability to output DTS-HD High Resolution Audio streams to an external decoder such as an A/V receiver or pre-amp/processor. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS 2.0 + Digital Out™

DTS 2.0 + Digital Out denotes the dual ability to output DTS Digital Surround audio streams to an external decoder such as an A/V receiver or pre-amp/processor as well as fold down the digital surround soundtrack for playback in a 2-channel environment through analog outputs. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS Digital Out™

DTS Digital Out is used on hardware products that have been certified to successfully pass the DTS encoded digital bitstream to an external DTS decoder for playback. This is most commonly used on DVD players with a digital output that do not already carry an on-board DTS decoder. Use the logo shown at right.

DTS 2.0 Channel™

DTS 2.0 Channel is used on hardware products that fold down a DTS multi-channel bitstream into a 2-channel output without any surround sound simulation, such as handheld DVD Players. Use logo configuration shown at right for equipment that does not include DTS bitstream output (SPDIF). Use the 2.0+Digital Out logo for equipment that offers both 2-channel downmix and full DTS bitstream output. Use the logo shown at right.

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#10 of 16 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted June 07 2007 - 01:14 AM

This is the kind of thing that takes the fun right out of this hobby. This is an interesting thread, but I think it would be more pratical if someone could match up all the HDMI 1.3 BD/HD DVD players and receivers with these chips mentioned. I guess that would be a lot of work though.
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#11 of 16 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted June 07 2007 - 03:22 AM

Does any current player have the DTS logos? I have not really looked.
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#12 of 16 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted June 07 2007 - 03:32 AM

Not to be flippant, but I don't put much stock in logos. No one's even proven the whole royalties issue thing. And if blu-ray takes off, I'm sure Sony could pony up any additional licensing fee.

My god, if they put all those DTS logos on a player it would look like NASCAR.

There was talk that some early Japanese units actually had the DTS HD logos (mine just has a "dts digital surround" logo. Maybe they just couldn't get the code written fast enough.

Didn't take too long to deliver upscaling and 24fps though, so I'm still hopeful for a decoding solution.

If DTS-HD MA is THAT intensive, I wonder if they'll have to come up with some kind of solution that automatically makes the player drop down to the DTS core when enabling HD PIP content. I know some have expressed doubt whether the PS3 could handle the lossless audio AND PIP, but this seems like a scenario when that core could come in handy. Do you really need lossless audio when the filmmakers are talking over the film anyway?

Reading between the lines in following the PS3 and the DTS-HD MA, it looks to me like Sony (and perhaps Blu-ray in general) is more concerned with player decoding. When I first read about player-side decoding being necessary for player sounds, etc., I didn't think that sounded very important, but now I realize that it would be for interactive content. Transmitting just the raw bitstream of one soundtrack might not be that helpful.
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#13 of 16 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted June 07 2007 - 03:48 AM

This pertinent information was just posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen
I'm sort of a semi-insider, one could say. I guess.

Anyway, I've just confirmed that PS3 (with firmware 1.80) is unable to deliver compressed DTHD and DTS-HD MA as bitstream over HDMI. Verified this by connecting it to an Onkyo TX-SR605. Onkyo receives a regular DTS stream only from the PS3.

In the interests of parity, I can also verify that Toshiba XE1/XA2 won't pass the new audio codecs as bitstream either.
Link


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#14 of 16 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted June 07 2007 - 05:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
This pertinent information was just posted:
Link


Paul
I think most people knew it couldn't right now (no other player can either). The question is if it's a permanent can't or if the condition is firmware upgreadable.

The fact only us peons ever seemed to think "well, that should be an easy fix" and the insiders have been mum (aside from saying "internal decoding would be best") inclines me to think the silicon may be the limiting factor in passthrough ability. And if "9134 and higher" is to be believed.
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#15 of 16 OFFLINE   Glenise

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Posted July 05 2007 - 04:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Harbaugh
Pardon my french, but fuck HDMI and their constant revisions, incompatibilities, handshaking (or lack there of), sparkles, disconnects, and every other inconvenience it has caused. I thought the whole point was to have one common connection standard for both video and audio, but with the number of variations that HDMI has created, I would much prefer the old 2 cable approach. At least they always worked.

I'm still using old school equipment so I prefer the 2 cable approach.
Why can't Toshiba include two HDMI outputs so that I could run HDMI cable #1 to my projector for video and HDMI cable #2 to my receiver for audio?
I would rather do a straight connection to connection instead of relying on a receiver to do the HDMI switching for me.

#16 of 16 OFFLINE   Michael Osadciw

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Posted July 09 2007 - 05:18 PM

all I can say is...this is freakin annoying. the audio hobby is now fully converted to the land of computers.

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