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Fox: Please Drop DTS-MA for Dolby TrueHD


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165 replies to this topic

#1 of 166 OFFLINE   Nick Graham

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Posted May 21 2007 - 04:56 AM

While this is currently pretty much a non-issue due to their lack of output on BD, how could we best convince Fox to drop DTS-MA for Dolby TrueHD? With Warner on board, and Sony following suit, and TrueHD decoding available on at least two players, with more on the way, I think this production lull would be a good time for Fox to re-evaluate which lossless audio format to use. When they first announced they were using DTS-MA, I thought it was cool, but back then we all assumed there would be players (and mid-range, affordable ones at that) that could decode it.

Since it looks like there will not be any such players available until fall, and the player that is pushing the Blu-Ray lead in sales (the PS3) currently has no plans to support it, maybe before firing back up the replicators again, Fox might dabble with some TrueHD (with dialog normalization turned off for Dave Posted Image ).

Granted they still need to change their pricing structure, but even with the existing rip-off pricing, lossless audio that can be decoded by popular, affordable players (like the PS3 and the new Panasonic player) would make them seem to be a wiser investment.

#2 of 166 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted May 21 2007 - 05:06 AM

I don't trust them to turn off DialNorm, and DTS MA is the most efficient since it includes the legacy core (instead of strapping a DD track next to it), so I'd just as soon they stuck to what they have. Sounds fine right now, and everyone will need new players for Java 1.1 anyway (except MAYBE PS3 owners).

At least Fox is providing lossless tracks on BD releases (every one), as opposed to WB and Paramount, whom you just can't count on at all.
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#3 of 166 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted May 21 2007 - 05:22 AM

Fox please start releasing Blu-ray Discs, and then take Nick Graham's suggestion into consideration. Posted Image
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#4 of 166 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted May 21 2007 - 06:15 AM

Fox, please start actually supporting the format you are backing with realistically priced software; however, continue using DTS HD MA as the audio codec.
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#5 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 08:43 AM

I see no reason for Fox to switch to Dolby True HD! IMHO Fox made a wise choice when choosing to go with DTS-HD Master Audio. I have to agree with Grant that DTS-HD has the legacy core and it sounds much better than standard DD hands down. I would not want to be stuck without DTS-HD MA and have to put up with horible Dolby Digital. While Dolby True HD is a big step up from DD, I honestly feel that DTS has the best backward compatible format so far. I also do not care for Dolby's dialog normalization at all and would love to see it die on home video releases. How ever am not entirely convinced that is why DD sucks as bad as it does.

So to Fox I would say please keep DTS-HD MA and start releasing HD content again! Sense Universal chooses to leave Blu-ray owners out in the cold I will be spending that money on HD titles from Fox, Warner, Disney Ect.....

You would think that Sony would be the last one to support Dolby. I have been under the impression that Sony really did not like Dolby. Granted there are lots of dvd releases that have a DD track. You would think that Sony would use DTS-HD MA instead of going with Dolby True HD.

To Sony I would say drop Dolby True HD and go with DTS-HD MA.
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#6 of 166 OFFLINE   Robert George

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Posted May 21 2007 - 08:56 AM

DTS-HD MA is rapidly becoming the worst possible choice for any HD format. The reason is that is is now appearing more and more likely that NO current Blu-ray or HD DVD players will ever be able to decode this format. Just today, the latest unofficial word on firmware for the Toshiba HD-XA2 is that when that player is updated, it will enable only a "pass-though" to a receiver or processor that has DTS-MA decoding built into that. No current or recently announced Blu-ray player will decode DTS-HD MA. DTS-HD only, and only in the latest couple of models. Even the PS3 has yet to see an update that allows internal decoding, and Sony has never really said the PS3 would actually be capable of this.

As it now stands, the only way to get decoded DTS lossless audio will be to buy a NEW player that is full HDMI 1.3 AND a NEW receiver that is full HDMI 1.3 with DTS-MA decoding built in.

BTW, the way TrueHD can be implemented on Blu-ray also allows for a DD 640 kb/s core to be extracted for those without TrueHD decoding.

#7 of 166 OFFLINE   Shawn Perron

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Posted May 21 2007 - 09:12 AM

There is no reason to be short sighted. The support will come eventually, if for no other reason then the fact that Fox has been using it. On the HD-DVD side Studio Canal has been using DTS-MA in Europe. Even 1 year after launch neither format is quite ready for prime time as the lack of this major feature shows. Hopefully towards the end of this year both formats finally get thier stuff together and release fully featured players.

#8 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 09:13 AM

Quote:
No current or recently announced Blu-ray player will decode DTS-HD MA.

Panasonic is coming out with there second generation Blu-ray player that will not only decode DTS-HD MA but it will also decode Dolby True HD as well. But I am not sure if Sony's BDP-S300 will include the same lossless decoding or not? I believe that the Sony should have HDMI 1.3 so an external decoder should be able to do the job.
Supporter of 1080p & 4K video / Supporter of Lossless PCM, Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio / Say No To MP3 & WMA / Say no to Bose & LG!
 

 


#9 of 166 OFFLINE   Nick Graham

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Posted May 21 2007 - 09:44 AM

I was under the impression the new player from Panny only did DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD. High Def Digest initially reported that it would decode DTS-MA, but the retracted that.

As for being short-sighted, here's a compromise - how about use TrueHD or PCM along with the DTS-MA track until there are players on the market that actually play it. They could follow after Sony and put two lossless audio tracks on one BD50. Lord knows they aren't using the space for extras.

I was a DTS fanatic in regards to SD, but they've dropped the ball horribly in regards to HD. I think there is a movement from PCM to TrueHD, and I think my once beloved DTS-MA is going to end up relatively obscure in terms of domestic BD players and titles. Fox titles just strike me as an even bigger rip-off when they don't offer the audio fidelity literally every other BD title I own or plan to own in the near future has. DTS was far and away king in the SD days, but with TrueHD and PCM, they are just another audio format.

#10 of 166 OFFLINE   StevenW

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Posted May 21 2007 - 10:41 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but if all these are lossless what difference does it make which one makes it?

#11 of 166 OFFLINE   Robert George

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Posted May 21 2007 - 01:21 PM

Quote:
I was under the impression the new player from Panny only did DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD. High Def Digest initially reported that it would decode DTS-MA, but the retracted that.

That is correct. No DTS-HD MA in any current or announced player from either format.

Quote:
As for being short-sighted, here's a compromise - how about use TrueHD or PCM along with the DTS-MA track until there are players on the market that actually play it.

Why? It's not like DTS MA offers something unique. There is already a lossless audio option that is currently usable on both formats' players.

#12 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:00 PM

Quote:
Why? It's not like DTS MA offers something unique. There is already a lossless audio option that is currently usable on both formats' players.

I would disagree and would say that since DTS-HD MA uses a 1.5mb DTS legacy core. And that DTS 5.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 is IMHO much more transparent and better sounding than its Dolby counterpart. I would say that it offers something that Dolby True HD doesn't. Dolby True HD sound very good but if you have to go backwards, then you are stuck with standard Dolby Digital. And especially with HD-DVD you end up using Dolby Digital plus to get the same bit rate that Blu-ray offers using standard Dolby Digital. IMHO Dolby Digital Plus is not all that great and is not any better than the previous DD.

LPCM sounds very good but takes up alot of space so if DTS-HD MA can offer audio that is just as good as DTHD while using lower bit rate than LPCM. While also offering superior lossy backwards capatibility then I argue that DTS does offer something unique!

Quote:
That is correct. No DTS-HD MA in any current or announced player from either format.

I would like to find out if the DMP-BD10A will or will not decode DTS-HD MA and if it doesn't and if it does not have HDMI 1.3 I will be buying another player for sure. This may end up being the reason I end up buying the Sony BDP-S300 as I believe it will be using HDMI 1.3 and that should work with the HDMI 1.3 Denon receiver I am looking to buy next.

And till I can buy that new receiver I can still listen to the DTS legacy track till I can decode DTS-HD MA. Posted Image

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#13 of 166 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Panasonic is coming out with there second generation Blu-ray player that will not only decode DTS-HD MA but it will also decode Dolby True HD as well. But I am not sure if Sony's BDP-S300 will include the same lossless decoding or not? I believe that the Sony should have HDMI 1.3 so an external decoder should be able to do the job.
I just read the Panasonic specs and it read DTS HD (not DTS HD-MA). Is there anyone that can validate this? This was the player I was planning to replace my Samsung with until I read the specs.


From the press release from Panasonic
Quote:
The DMP-BD10A features an audio upgrade package that brings high end surround audio to the viewing experience via the inclusion of 7.1 channel surround, Dolby® True HD and dts-HD High Resolution Audio decoding technology. Press Release


No mention of DTS HD Master Audio.
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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LG 55LX6500 55-Inch 3D 1080p 240 Hz LED

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1124 BDs and going up, 1028 - DVDs and going down.


#14 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:26 PM

I would love to know this myself ppltd. I have yet to buy a Blu-ray player and I really want one but I will not buy just anything ether. Money is to tight and I still need to come up with the cash for a receiver upgrade after I get a Blu-ray player.

I am trying to reach Panasonic and see what kind of information I can get from them. I am trying a email link but I am not sure if it will work or not? I really want to have a Blu-ray player sitting in my HT no later than November.
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#15 of 166 OFFLINE   Paul Arnette

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:27 PM

Quote:
I just read the Panasonic specs and it read DTS HD (not DTS HD-MA). Is there anyone that can validate this? This was the player I was planning to replace my Samsung with until I read the specs.

While I cannot say for certain, I am relatively confident that there are no forthcoming BD players that can decode DTS HD-MA. Chris Walker from Pioneer indicated that DTS HD-MA is currently too intensive for the existing player chip sets. Besides, how else can the CE companies up-sell you a brand new DTS HD-MA capable receiver if they offer you this feature now on the player side?

Of course your new BD player will need to have HDMI 1.3 in order to use it with that brand new receiver, and they are still churning out G2 BD players without it (Pioneer Elite BDP-94HD). G2 is generally about cost-cutting for CE companies. Given that BD Profile 1.1 will be mandatory for player models introduced to the market after October 31st, 2007, I will most likely not be upgrading my BD player until G3 at the earliest.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#16 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:29 PM

Well that was fast the email bounced back so I guess that link did not work. Posted Image Does anyone here have information on the DMP-BD10A, or know where to find out?

Quote:
While I cannot say for certain, I am relatively confident that there are no forthcoming BD players that can decode DTS HD-MA. Chris Walker from Pioneer indicated that DTS HD-MA is currently too intensive for the existing player chip sets. Besides, how else can the CE companies up-sell you a brand new DTS HD-MA capable receiver if they offer you this feature now on the player side?

That actually would not bother me as I am looking at new receiver with HDMI 1.3 and decoding for Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA as well. All I need at that point is a Bluray player that offers HDMI 1.3 and I am as sound as a pound. Posted Image
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#17 of 166 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Given that BD Profile 1.1 will be mandatory for player models introduced to the market after October 31st, 2007, I will most likely not be upgrading my BD player until G3 at the earliest.
Might be the most sound advise I have heard in this forum for some time. Luckly, my Samsung still does a very fine job with my BD's so I guess I can wait.
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

Blu-Ray Collection  DVD Collection, Numerous BD players,

LG 55LX6500 55-Inch 3D 1080p 240 Hz LED

Pioneer VSX-94TXH, Panasonic PT-AE7000U 3D 1080p (PT-AE8000 Just Ordered, 

1124 BDs and going up, 1028 - DVDs and going down.


#18 of 166 OFFLINE   Robert George

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Posted May 21 2007 - 03:38 PM

Quote:
I would disagree and would say that since DTS-HD MA uses a 1.5mb DTS legacy core. And that DTS 5.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 is IMHO much more transparent and better sounding than its Dolby counterpart. I would say that it offers something that Dolby True HD doesn't. Dolby True HD sound very good but if you have to go backwards, then you are stuck with standard Dolby Digital. And especially with HD-DVD you end up using Dolby Digital plus to get the same bit rate that Blu-ray offers using standard Dolby Digital. IMHO Dolby Digital Plus is not all that great and is not any better than the previous DD.

Well, at least you qualified all that with "IMHO". Your avatar explains why you have the opinions you do. Other than that, I really don't know what else to say. You are certainly entitled to your opinions.

#19 of 166 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted May 21 2007 - 06:11 PM

Quote:
Well, at least you qualified all that with "IMHO". Your avatar explains why you have the opinions you do. Other than that, I really don't know what else to say. You are certainly entitled to your opinions.

The way I see it at least DTS-HD MA will offer top notch backwards capatibility at full bandwidth. And to my knowledge most DTS DVD's are considered to be superior to there DD counterparts. I would be interested in hearing why you believe that DTHD is a better solution over DTS-HD MA?

The problem with HD-DVD is there are not many lossless titles vs Blu-ray. I love the HD-DVD advertisement on alot of the HD-DVD discs. Where they mention lossless sound up to 7.1 channels. What they do not say is lossless sound when offered by the studio on a title by title bases. Dolby True HD is good but I honestly do not think it is the answer in this case. When Dolby ends up putting out a superior product I will have no problem backing it and owning the titles that are encoded with it. Dolby has done alot for the industry and has been one of the biggest inovators in the business. I just think they have been outdone by DTS even though DTS has made some bad mistakes involving implementation of there product over the years.

I would aruge that nothing is perfect but the best choice is what works the best and can also work with what has come out before it. Thats the product that ends up being called the best. I feel the age of Dolby has passed and it is DTS's turn and at some point ether Dolby will regain its top spot. Or yet another compan may come along and teach both Dolby and DTS a new trick, the future is funny like that. Posted Image
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#20 of 166 OFFLINE   Rob Young

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Posted May 22 2007 - 01:21 AM

Here we go again...the DTS vs DD crap. Sheesh

Seeing as how my player can decode TrueHD while none can do DTS-MA then right now I'd say I would prefer TrueHD. If there is no benefit to DTS-MA in terms of performance then I see no point to use it over TrueHD...and I don't give a rip about backward/legacy stuff. Seems lame to me to use that as the reason to use a format that doesn't even fully work on current players. So I can't get MA but because it has the DTS core I should be happier instead of actually listening to TrueHD? Huh. Seriously, that makes no sense at all.


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