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Considering an SVS PB12-NSD vs. Paradigm PS-1000, any thoughts?


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#1 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 06 2007 - 10:38 AM

Hey, I have a relatively open room that is 12' by 25' with a vaulted ceiling that opens up into a loft and the kitchen. I had my heart set on the Paradigm PS-1000 but my local dealer doesn't have any in stock and won't have any in for 3 weeks. So I started perusing the web and checked out SVS' website. I'm not real familiar with their stuff, although it seems that they have a good reputation among people on this forum and the few reviews I've been able to find have been very good.

I'm wondering if anyone has personal experience with the PB12-NSD? Any thoughts of this sub vs. the Paradigm. I would hate to order a sub that I've never heard before (I've never auditioned any of the models; no one I know has one) but based on the company's popularity here, I have to believe that they make quality products.

Also, if size is no consideration, should I go with the PB12-NSD vs. the new SB-12Plus? It sounds like that is what SVS themselves recommend, going with the bigger box.

#2 of 18 Stephen Hopkins

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Posted May 06 2007 - 12:12 PM

I have no doubt either of the SVS offerings you're considering would be a noticeable step up from the PS1000... I would venture to guess even the PB10-NSD would be a noticeable step up.

If size is of no concern and your primary source material is home theater then the PB12-NSD is probably your best choice given its deeper extension and greater output. If you listen to a large amount of music or if you need something smaller then the SB12-Plus will be a better choice (it also has a parametric-EQ if you have a harsh room)... either will do extremely well for either focus, but each has its own strong points as well.

One great thing about the PB12-NSD is it's available for only $499 as an overstock in White or Silver... if either of those colors work with your decor then it's a real steal.

#3 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 06 2007 - 01:35 PM

Thanks for the response Stephen. I'll primarily use it for HT. I did notice the deal for the white or silver, which would work because right now my sub sits in the corner behind my TV (unfortunately my only setup option in this living room) but for future flexibility I'll probably just fork over the extra cash for the black.

So it sounds like you think that either SVS would be a significant improvement over the PS-1000? Have you owned SVS before? What do you have now?

#4 of 18 Stephen Hopkins

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Posted May 06 2007 - 01:47 PM

Several years ago I replaced a PDR10 with a DIY Shiva + 250w plate amp. The Shiva which was nearly identical to the original SVS PCi (cylinder version of the PB12) and blew the PDR10 out of the water. With the newer amps and NSD driver (third revision of the entry level SVS driver) I can only assume they've continued to exceed the prior generations.

Now I have a DIY Ascendant Avalanche w/ 300w BASH amp that goes VERY deep and extremely loud (and the driver has the ability to handle ALOT more power if I ever throw it at it). I've been doing without the sub for awhile (about to start rebuilding the enclosure) and I can't wait to get it back into my system.

#5 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted May 06 2007 - 02:26 PM

Hi Harlowe,

With that much open area, try to convince the local dealer to give you a deal on a PS1200 or PW2200 since they are out of stock on the ps1000..Posted Image

I believe you would find the PB12nsd and the PW2200 to be very comparable down to 27-30hz...with the PB12nsd gaining the upper hand in the real deep bass. This deep bass advantage is primarily due to the enclosure "tuning". (the PB12nsd is "tuned" below 20hz, the PW2200 is tuned around 28hz if I remember correctly) If you can get the PW2200 at a price close to the PB12nsd...I'd try that out first. You might find it is all the subwoofer you really need.

Tom V.
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#6 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 06 2007 - 03:16 PM

Tom, thanks for the advice. Some details I left out... I'm kind of fed up with the local dealer since I was waiting for their last shipment and I spoke with them several times; they pretty much knew I was ready to buy the PS-1000 and on the day their shipment came in, they sold it before I had a chance to make it in to the store. They don't have any PS-1200s in either, and so far they haven't been real accommodating with prices. I spoke with a dealer an hour and half away and they said they haven't been selling much of the PS-1000 so they don't keep them in stock either...

So the Paradigms aren't really making themselves very available and the dealer hasn't been very customer friendly. If you think that a PB12-NSD would be comparable to the PW2200, then I would just rather try the former. What are your thoughts on the SB12-Plus vs. the PB12-NSD?

#7 of 18 MaxL

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Posted May 07 2007 - 12:08 AM

i know i'm not tom, i've never listened to any svs sub, but i'm up, i'm bored, and i'm typing...

all sound is governed by physics. sound is made by moving air. the lower the sound, the more air one needs to move. hence the bigger woofer cones and enclosures to make low bass. i could ramble on a lot, in more detail than you probably care to know. so to get to your question, SB12 vs PB12...

to speak generally, the sealed designs trade efficiency for 1) size and 2)accuracy or detail or clarity. i've never heard of anyone accusing any svs sub of being muddy or thumpy. but if the PB12 provides tight and clean bass, i'd assume the SB12 is a little tighter and cleaner. the SB12 may also have a tremendously loud and low output for its size but the PB12 will go louder and lower. that is due purely to physics and design. the SB12 has a more powerful amp, but the the PB12 has a larger ported box. the port means both less internal pressure and therefore, more air moved for a given amount of power output from the amp. the ported box also means it can be (and has been) tuned to a specific frequency (in this case 18hz i think). poorly designed ported subs can have very sloppy, muddy bass due to port/ box relationships. no worries about that here. the SB12 needs the extra amp power because, as the box is sealed, the woofer has to be pushed against the internal air pressure of the box. that internal air pressure has a few distortion fighting benefits including allowing for very fast rebound of woofer to "zero" position. this is why sealed speaker designs tend to be very tight, clean, accurate, etc. they can also be significantly smaller without the port design issues including tuning and chuffing. there are ideal sizes given the woofer and amp being used, but generally speaking, a good sealed sub can be much smaller than a similarly spec'd ported sub.

so anyway, i'm not going to say you should get one or the other. i have a small sealed sub and love it. but it's in a relatively small room. based on physics, you might want more output and the PB12 will probably win than battle in your particular room. they're both good subs and very good values.
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#8 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 07 2007 - 04:33 PM

MaxL, thanks for the thoughts. There's part of me that wants to go with the sealed box, knowing it will be tighter and lower, not to mention it looks gorgeous. But I think I will probably order the NSD tomorrow. Unless anyone else has any thoughts on the subs above? I've also been tempted by the Hsu sub that's $499...there's a lot of good reviews for all of the Hsu subs on the web, and for that model in particular, considering the price.

#9 of 18 MaxL

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Posted May 07 2007 - 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlowe Thrombey
...the sealed box, knowing it will be tighter and lower...

i don't think i said that, if i did, oops, sorry. the sealed does not go lower in general or in this particular case. i think the pb12 is a good bet.
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#10 of 18 cabreau

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Posted May 10 2007 - 03:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlowe Thrombey
Hey, I have a relatively open room that is 12' by 25' with a vaulted ceiling that opens up into a loft and the kitchen. I had my heart set on the Paradigm PS-1000 but my local dealer doesn't have any in stock and won't have any in for 3 weeks. So I started perusing the web and checked out SVS' website. I'm not real familiar with their stuff, although it seems that they have a good reputation among people on this forum and the few reviews I've been able to find have been very good.

I'm wondering if anyone has personal experience with the PB12-NSD? Any thoughts of this sub vs. the Paradigm. I would hate to order a sub that I've never heard before (I've never auditioned any of the models; no one I know has one) but based on the company's popularity here, I have to believe that they make quality products.

Also, if size is no consideration, should I go with the PB12-NSD vs. the new SB-12Plus? It sounds like that is what SVS themselves recommend, going with the bigger box.

I am a pretty big fan of Paradigm. I started with Atom/cc-170 series and jumped to Studio 20's-cc-470. I had a PDR-12 with the Atoms and now have a PW-2200 for my Studios. Honestly, even being a HUGE Paradigm fan, the only reason that I have the PW-2200 and not an SVS Sub is because the dealer gave me a good trade-in on my older speakers and I would have lost money had I not traded up to the PW-2200. Even never hearing the SVS Subs, I would have dove in headfirst and ordered one of those instead just because they get the best reviews on any forums I've seen. Anyway, if you are going to stick with Paradigm because of trade-in reasons or just because you are completely loyal to that brand, I suggest staying away from the PDR/PS series subs. The PW series are a little more but sound much much better. And if you can manage, by all means stick to Paradigm speakers, but for the sub, give SVS a shot, I would have if I could.


I ran across these today, it's been a while since I was checking out speakers, but I bet these things will give the SVS a run for their money. Posted Image

http://www.axiomaudi...ep600_main.html

Have any of you ever heard a pair of these?
"...He who knows how to live can walk abroad without fear of rhinocerous or tiger. He will not be wounded in battle. For in him rhinoceroses can find no place to thrust their horn, tigers can find no place to use their claws, and weapons no place to pierce. Why is this so? Because he has no...

#11 of 18 cabreau

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Posted May 10 2007 - 03:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel
Hi Harlowe,

With that much open area, try to convince the local dealer to give you a deal on a PS1200 or PW2200 since they are out of stock on the ps1000..Posted Image

I believe you would find the PB12nsd and the PW2200 to be very comparable down to 27-30hz...with the PB12nsd gaining the upper hand in the real deep bass. This deep bass advantage is primarily due to the enclosure "tuning". (the PB12nsd is "tuned" below 20hz, the PW2200 is tuned around 28hz if I remember correctly) If you can get the PW2200 at a price close to the PB12nsd...I'd try that out first. You might find it is all the subwoofer you really need.

Tom V.
SVS


Look at that response. He's suggesting you go buy the competitor's sub first and see if you like it. Who does that?!?

I wish the circumstances had allowed me to try an SVS instead of the PW-2200 (not that I have any complaints at all about the PW-2200, it fills my 12x15 room very well and goes deep enough for my tasted, I actually have the volume of the sub at about 40%), because I like supporting companies like SVS who work hard and let the products sell themselves.

As soon as my wallet and wife allow, I will find someone who has an SVS sub that's comparable to my PW-2200 (in price, not sound) and listen to it, and if I like it, I'm going to find a way to try one of those damned things out.
"...He who knows how to live can walk abroad without fear of rhinocerous or tiger. He will not be wounded in battle. For in him rhinoceroses can find no place to thrust their horn, tigers can find no place to use their claws, and weapons no place to pierce. Why is this so? Because he has no...

#12 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 10 2007 - 07:54 AM

That is pretty impressive that he would suggest I try the Paradigms first...

Well, I sacked up and ordered the SVS the day before yesterday. I received my tracking email today and the sub is already in my city and will be delivered tomorrow. Wow. And SVS was very prompt in returning my emails as well. So far I've been very impressed. I will return and let you guys know what I think once she's hooked up and set up. Thanks for everyone's advice and thoughts.

#13 of 18 Jeff O.

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Posted May 11 2007 - 01:30 AM

"That is pretty impressive that he would suggest I try the Paradigms first..."

Tom has always been an upstanding guy, always giving you an honest opinion, even on competitors subs. Kind of like the Progressive Insurance of sub companies. That is why they will always get my money and I never did understand why he got treated so badly on some other forums.

You won't be disappointed in the SVS.

#14 of 18 Jack Gilvey

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Posted May 11 2007 - 03:51 AM

I think you did alright. I own a PB10 and have heard the PS-1000. There's really little comparison. The PS-1000 is a bandpass sub, concentrating lots of output over a somewhat narrow hump...the very definition of "boom". PB10, OTOH, defines performance at its price.
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#15 of 18 Greg Gable

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Posted May 11 2007 - 03:51 AM

You made a great choice. The SVS will out perform the Paradigm; I wasnt very impressed with any of the para subs except the Servo. I compared the PB12 P2 with the Servo side by side and they were really close. The SVS was quite a bit less expensive so that should be a no-brainer.
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#16 of 18 ryan.p

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Posted May 11 2007 - 06:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlowe Thrombey
Hey, I have a relatively open room that is 12' by 25' with a vaulted ceiling that opens up into a loft and the kitchen. I had my heart set on the Paradigm PS-1000 but my local dealer doesn't have any in stock and won't have any in for 3 weeks. So I started perusing the web and checked out SVS' website. I'm not real familiar with their stuff, although it seems that they have a good reputation among people on this forum and the few reviews I've been able to find have been very good.

I'm wondering if anyone has personal experience with the PB12-NSD? Any thoughts of this sub vs. the Paradigm. I would hate to order a sub that I've never heard before (I've never auditioned any of the models; no one I know has one) but based on the company's popularity here, I have to believe that they make quality products.

Also, if size is no consideration, should I go with the PB12-NSD vs. the new SB-12Plus? It sounds like that is what SVS themselves recommend, going with the bigger box.
I find this thread very interesting. I used to own a Paradigm PS1000 v.4 and thought it was decent. It was sluggish with most music but not bad with ht. Then, I bought a Mirage S12 12" sub and there was absolutely no comparison. The S12 was much more articulate and punchy sounding to me that was able to bring movies and music to a whole different level. Over time, I had to rethink things because of my neighbors constantly calling the police on me. I got rid on my S12 a bought (2) Acoustic Research 8" subs and they walked all over the Paradigm PS1000 v.4 is every respect. Very tight and punchy yet had lots of slam with movies. My only complaint was the PS1000 v.4 did have a bit more extension as it should given it is a 10" vs the 8" on the AR's. I just recently bought a SVS PB10-NSD and found it to be even better than the Mirage S12 especially down low. However, I just sent it back this week and am now going to get the PB12-NSD. I am almost certain that will do the trick for me. The PB10 was stellar BUT I need more of what it does and as such decided to try the PB12. The customer service at SVS is awesome and they really do care about their products in that they want to make the customer happy. My vote would be to go with SVS because even the PB10 was much better than the Paradigm PS1000 v.4 in my slightly under 2000 cubic feet room. Good luck in your decision.Posted Image Posted Image
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."

#17 of 18 Harlowe Thrombey

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Posted May 12 2007 - 05:36 PM

So the PB-12 came yesterday, and I didn't get home until 10:00, but I went about the task of hooking it up and moving it to where the old sub was. First of all, I was expecting the box to be big, but when I walked in and saw the massive shipping box sitting there...let's just say its impressive. Once I got it out, I was already starting to fall in love with it. Its a beautiful unit and very solidly built. It is a beast, which is okay with me, but its unfortunate for those who may have trouble with the WAF. I'm glad SVS is starting to make some smaller subs, I'd still like to hear that SB12.

So I got it hooked up but couldn't really do any fine tuning or listening since it was so late and my neighbors are about to hate me as it is...

I was able to calibrate the system better today and do some critical listening. In short, I'm not disappointed at all, and I have hard time believe that the PS-1000 or 1200 for that matter would be able to outdo this sub. It is deep and solid. I haven't pushed it all, but I definitely get the sense that it has plenty in reserve. I'm very happy with it, and I'm pretty sure that this sub will be in my system for a long time. The only way I could see having problems is I move and have placement issues in a different room. Because its so large, it may limit where you can place it (depending on the room.)

I probably could have gotten by with the 10, but I love knowing that I have this much bass in reserve. I'll post more as I continue to tune and listen. For the record, I was using an MTX PS-12 which I bought around 1997 for I think around $400. It was a decent sub and played relatively loud, but it didn't go that low. Compared to the new SVS, its like night and day. I love it.

#18 of 18 ryan.p

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Posted May 13 2007 - 03:42 AM

Thats great Jason. Congrats on your purchase. My PB12-NSD will be here very soon and I am very excited. I sent the PB10 back, paid the difference, and should be getting the PB12-NSD by late next week. Size for me is a non-issue since I no longer have to deal with a "WAF". I can tell you from personal experience the Paradigm PS1000 v.4 is NOT even close to the PB10-NSD. Not sure about the PS1200 v.4 as it may be a better contender. The PS1000 v.4 was very sluggish with music applications BUT was decent with ht. Persoanlly, I prefer a sub that offers a better balance between the two and the PB10 is in a different league so to speak when compared to the PS1000. The PB12-NSD from what I have garnered thus far will outperform the PB10. So, I can only imagine how much better it is when compared to the PS1000v.4. Thanks for keeping us all updated. This thread had helped my a lot as well.
"It is NOT about what brand of audio components you use but RATHER how you use them that counts--only YOU know what YOU prefer. It really is as simple as that."


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