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PIP on Blu-ray, will PS3 be upgradable to do it???


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#1 of 41 DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 26 2007 - 02:29 AM

So, BD-J is official, but currently no existing players support the PIP feature. Wondering if the PS3 (or any other player) will be firmware upgradable to do it?

from the bits today:

www.thedigitalbits.com

(quote of Bill Hunt quoting Andy Parsons)

And while we're talking Blu-ray, the BD Association has issued a statement clarifying the compliance of current and forthcoming Blu-ray Disc players with the BD-Java spec. Here's the text:

"From Andy Parsons, U.S. Promotion Committee Chair, Blu-ray Disc Association:

Based on recent coverage, there appears to be some confusion about the implementation of BD-Java on Blu-ray Disc.

All Blu-ray Disc players must support BD-Java (BD-J) and every one shipped to date does. The confusion surrounds an announcement by the [Blu-ray Disc Association] setting an Oct. 31 deadline for implementation of several secondary features. The deadline applies to:

– Secondary video, also known as picture-in-picture (PiP).
– Secondary audio.
– Persistent memory storage (a minimum of 256MB, 1GB for players with an Internet connection).

Of these, the PiP requirement is receiving the most attention. The PiP feature is a specific hardware function that must be built into a player, and BD-Java is simply used to operate this feature if it's present. No player shipped to date supports PiP at this time, although it's always possible that a given model has been designed to switch it on later (no company has announced this yet as far as I know).

My point is that it's important to separate picture-in-picture and the other items listed above from BD-Java. BD-Java is one of two interactive modes that can be used on a Blu-ray Disc (the other being "HDMV" or high definition movie mode, which is similar to DVD navigational structures). All BD players must support both environments.

If a studio offers a PiP function or other features that require the persistent memory or the ability to playback secondary video or audio streams on future BD titles, current players will not support those specific features. However, movie playback, as well as other interactive features not using these functions would be unaffected and should work as they normally would."
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#2 of 41 Jim_K

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Posted April 26 2007 - 02:38 AM

Quote:
However, movie playback, as well as other interactive features not using these functions would be unaffected and should work as they normally would."

This isn't news to me as it's how I always understood it.

If you ask me it's much ado about nothing but these studios seem to think this feature somehow important. I can see it being chucked aside after a year or two.

Sort of like the useless multiangle feature on DVD's that the studios thought was an important feature 10 years ago.
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#3 of 41 DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 26 2007 - 02:58 AM

Personally, I love the idea of a PIP video stream. BD allows *full 1080p resolution* to be used for the secondary stream (HD DVD limits it to SD res), so you could have cool special-features like on LOTR where you could see special-effects or storyboarding/behind the scenes in the PIP window that then you hit a button and "swap" with the feature film if you want to see maximized.

Disney's Bambi DVD had a second-encode of the feature film with a PIP video commentary that behaved this way without user-interaction. It was really incredible... by far one of the best comentaries I've seen.
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#4 of 41 Alistair_M

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Posted April 26 2007 - 08:16 AM

My gut feeling is that when they designed PIP on bluray they would have made sure that the solution would be PS3 upgradable to do it. None of the required specs look above the PS3. So I'm assuming its all going to happen on PS3 in an autumn PS3 firmware update.

#5 of 41 Shane Martin

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Posted April 26 2007 - 10:46 AM

I'm banking $600 on the fact the PS3 will be upgradable to it. It's their primary source of a BR player. They won't leave those hanging out to dry.

Jim,
BDJ is really their attempt to combat the U-control type features that HD DVD has. This is something you want because it is preventing such titles of Batman Begins from hitting BR.

#6 of 41 ppltd

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
I'm banking $600 on the fact the PS3 will be upgradable to it. It's their primary source of a BR player. They won't leave those hanging out to dry.

Jim,
BDJ is really their attempt to combat the U-control type features that HD DVD has. This is something you want because it is preventing such titles of Batman Begins from hitting BR.
If, as the article states, it is hardware implementation, and the specs will not be complete until next quarter, I am not sure how they would have been able to include it in the PS3 specs, although I hope I am wrong.
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#7 of 41 DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:19 AM

(edit, I now get that you're talking about the hardware requirements)
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#8 of 41 DanR

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
If, as the article states, it is hardware implementation, and the specs will not be complete until next quarter, I am not sure how they would have been able to include it in the PS3 specs, although I hope I am wrong.
Tom, the difference is that the PS3 has the computing power to do it via a software solution. I've read that there were demos of the PS3 decoding and displaying something like 6+ steams of AVC encoded PiP video at the same time.

So the standalones need a video decoding chip to do it because they don't have the software power the Ps3 has. The PS3 is an entirely different animal, and it is *theoretically* possible it can do PiP via a software solution. Whether Sony chooses to do this is an entirely different matter...

Regards,
Dan

Edit: I should point out that just because a standalone does not do PiP now, does not mean it will not be able to do so. As David points out, a firmware upgrade could make the hardware (if present) "active" to do the PiP. I'm surprised nobody has looked inside the Pio, Panny, and Sony standalones to see if these chips are in there...

#9 of 41 ppltd

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanR
Tom, the difference is that the PS3 has the computing power to do it via a software solution. I've read that there were demos of the PS3 decoding and displaying something like 6+ steams of AVC encoded PiP video at the same time.
I certainly hope you are right. I would be criminal if Sony dropped the ball on this.
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#10 of 41 ppltd

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Sigh. That's why in the quote you quoted he stated *upgradable*... naturally it's not in the specs in the player right now. We're talking about a firmware upgrade (ie, that's what the whole thread is about)
David, if you were referencing my post, you are wrong. The quote I am referencing is
Quote:
If a studio offers a PiP function or other features that require the persistent memory or the ability to playback secondary video or audio streams on future BD titles, current players will not support those specific features.
If you were not referring to my post, I apoligize.]
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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#11 of 41 DanR

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Posted April 26 2007 - 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
I certainly hope you are right. I would be criminal if Sony dropped the ball on this.
Where did they promise it *would* be done? There were/are under no obligation to do so.

Regards,
Dan

#12 of 41 DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 26 2007 - 01:29 PM

ppltd,

I'm confused. You quoted someone saying "I'm banking $600 on the fact the PS3 will be upgradable to it. It's their primary source of a BR player. They won't leave those hanging out to dry." and then responded by making a statement doubting Sony could have "gotten it in the specs". My point was that *of course* they didn't have it in the specs... the PS3 was released before the details about PIP were finalized. But, as the original poster says, we're hoping it will be upgradable nevertheless.
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#13 of 41 Norman Matthews

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Posted April 26 2007 - 01:56 PM

I think the key word in his original post is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
If, as the article states, it is hardware implementation, and the specs will not be complete until next quarter, I am not sure how they would have been able to include it in the PS3 specs, although I hope I am wrong.

Now, you may think you're addressing that directly and he may not see that you are, but at best it seems like a couple of people talking past each other, and certainly not sigh-worthy.

#14 of 41 DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 26 2007 - 02:02 PM

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I get it now.

Yes, as Dan explained the PS3 is a different animal hardware-wise in comparison to the rest of the stand-alones. Not a 100% gaurantee, but it's hoped (like with DTS-HD MA) that it will be able to pull some firmware tricks that other stand-alones might miss out on due to their hardware limitations.
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#15 of 41 John Berggren

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Posted April 26 2007 - 03:58 PM

I'm half banking the PS3 will be able to flex to do anything Blu Ray needs to.
However, as long as it gets me in the blu ray game and plays PS2 games... I doubt very highly it will be my last Blu Ray player.
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#16 of 41 Jim_K

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Posted April 27 2007 - 12:32 AM

Quote:
Jim,
BDJ is really their attempt to combat the U-control type features that HD DVD has. This is something you want because it is preventing such titles of Batman Begins from hitting BR.

I know Shane, but to me the feature isn't that important (I might be in the minority which is fine). Not important enough to be delaying titles. Sort of like audio commentaries, they're nice to have but rarely used by me unless the speaker is exceptional (a rarity).
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#17 of 41 ppltd

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Posted April 27 2007 - 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_K
I know Shane, but to me the feature isn't that important (I might be in the minority which is fine). Not important enough to be delaying titles. Sort of like audio commentaries, they're nice to have but rarely used by me unless the speaker is exceptional (a rarity).
I am in full agreement with you here and I don't think you are in the minority. While these 'extra' features are fun once or twice, I am not sure they have staying power, and IMHO certainly not worth holding up releases.

The only new 'feature' to the HD formats that I have found indispensable is the ability to call up the menus and change settings without interrupting the film.
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#18 of 41 Rob Young

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Posted April 27 2007 - 01:01 AM

Count me in as a person who couldn't care less about this stuff aside from it delaying titles...which to me is silly because again, I don't care about the extras. To each their own though.

#19 of 41 Shane Martin

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Posted April 27 2007 - 02:24 AM

That's great but if the BDJ stuff doesn't get figured out, the movie doesn't come out. It isn't about what WE want but rather what the studios want.

#20 of 41 BrettB

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Posted April 27 2007 - 03:34 AM

Blood Diamond is coming out sans pip & online features. If it sells well the floodgates are open.


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