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FINALLY! TrueHD, DTS-HD Master AVR Receivers!


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#1 of 52 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted April 23 2007 - 05:01 PM

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=831063

i'm shocked none of you have posted this already. what kind of a HT community is this?!?!!?!?!

Quote:
TX-SR605 MSRP $499 Shipping mid May
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (2 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (50 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey 2EQ Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*S-Video (5 in 2 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3
*Composite Video (5 in/2 out)
*Power 90W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 and Zone 2 Line-Out
*Bi-Amp Capable
*XM and Sirius ports
*XM HD Surround Sound through Neural Surround

TX-SR705 MSRP $799 Est Shipping date mid to late June
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (3 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (50 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Select2 Certified
*S-Video (5 in 2 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3
*Composite (5 in 2 out)
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 and Zone 2 Line-Out
*Bi-Amp Capable

TX-SR805 MSRP $999 Est Shipping date mid May
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (3 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*S-Video (6 in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3; OUT (OPT) 1
*Composite (6 in 1 out)
*Power 130W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp Capable

TX-SR875 MSRP $1599 Est Shipping date mid to late July
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (4 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (? in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*HQV Reon-VX Video Processing and NSV Precision Video
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*S-Video (? in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) ?/?
*Composite (? in 1 out)
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Video Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp & BTL Capable
*Dual Push-Pull Amp with 3 stage inverted

TX-NR905 MSRP $1999 Est Shipping date mid to late August
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (4 in 2 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (? in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*HQV Reon-VX Video Processing and NSV Precision Video
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*S-Video (? in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) ?/?
*Composite (? in 1 out)
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Video Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp & BTL Capable
*Dual Push-Pull Amp with 3 stage inverted
*Toroidal Transformer and Seperate Transformers for processing.
*Networking Capabilities via Onkyo's e-Control System for Internet Radio and WMA

Additional info:
HDMI and Component Video Upconversion is discribed as follows (For 805/705/605/575/505:
*Signal is output at its input resolutionwith no scaling

Video IN:
*Component
*S-Video
*Composite

Video OUT:
* HDMI or Component Video (Output at input Resolution)

480i>480i 480p>480p 576p>576p 720p>720p 1080i>720p

505/575 send Composite, S-Video and Component IN>Component OUT
HDMI IN>HDMI OUT

605/705/805 send Composite, S-Video, Component and HDMI IN> HDMI OUT


TX-NR905 and TX-SR875 Upconversion of Video Signals to HDMI:
All Video Signals are converted to HD 1080p Quality using Reon-VX Processing.

Video IN:
*Component Video (480i/480p/576p/720p/1080i)
*S-Video (480i)
*Composite (480i)

Video OUT:
*HDMI Output 1080p


#2 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 23 2007 - 11:38 PM

Quote:
i'm shocked none of you have posted this already. what kind of a HT community is this?!?!!?!?!

They do look neat (looking at the 605 myself), but receiver decoding/HDMI 1.3 isn't anywhere near as relevant as the hype would indicate, and anyone who really wants lossless audio is already getting it via their HDMI 1.1 players/receivers. Most people with a competent HDMI receiver wouldn't get much from an upgrade just from that standpoint. Perhaps this community knows this. Posted Image
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#3 of 52 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted April 24 2007 - 12:47 AM

hdmi 1.3 is very relevant because it is still the only spec to pass TrueHD, DTS Master signals directly to the AV Receiver:

Quote:
New lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new, lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™.
http://hdmi.org/pres...pr_20060622.asp


hdmi 1.1 and previous revisions only had 1080p and SACD/DVD-Audio MLP as well as the vanilla flavors of Dolby Digital and DTS.

now the question is whether DD+ and DTS-HD are both supported. truehd and master is bettr than DD+, DTS-HD, but i want the whole package =).

#4 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 24 2007 - 02:17 AM

Quote:
hdmi 1.3 is very relevant because it is still the only spec to pass TrueHD, DTS Master signals directly to the AV Receiver:
As an undecoded bitstream, but that's not needed, or even allowed in many cases...see below.

Quote:
hdmi 1.1 and previous revisions only had 1080p and SACD/DVD-Audio MLP as well as the vanilla flavors of Dolby Digital and DTS.

As well as the most important part, 7.1 channels of LPCM, 24/192 digital audio (what TrueHD/DTS Master are when unpacked/unzipped/decoded). See below.

Start here:

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=789994

Players can decode to LPCM and send that to the receiver via HDMI 1.1 or above for D/A conversion, or the player can send the bitstream via HDMI 1.3 to the receiver for decoding to LPCM and D/A conversion. Same thing either way.


Quote:
Q: Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or BluRay players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digita Plus, and DTS-HS Master Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an audio format standard that can be sent over any version of HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per samples.

To do this, consumers should ensure that their playback device (such as HD-DVD or Blu-ray player) is capable of decoding these new lossless Dolby & DTS audio formats into the PCM format on the HDMI output, and that the audio device (such as AV receiver) is capable of receiving multi-channel PCM audio over the HDMI inputs. Consult your user manual/product specification sheet to determine whether your device supports such PCM capabilities (we believe that nearly all HD-DVD and BluRay players will, but users should confirm this). Devices that support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed, encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be performed by the AV receiver (whereas the above transport method has the playback device performing the decoding).

http://www.hdmi.org/...umer/faq.asp#q2

Also, it's likely that the majority of titles will be authored in advanced mode, requiring in-player decoding. In which case, receiver decoding, and 1.3, would be largely irrelevant.

Quote:
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver.

http://www.dolby.com....HD_avrs_3.html

As you see, 1.3 isn't all that relevant as far as getting lossless audio from HD discs. And "Deep Color" is even less so, given that neither HD DVD nor BD even support it.
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#5 of 52 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 24 2007 - 02:54 AM

Great post Jack. Thank you.

#6 of 52 OFFLINE   Harpozep

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Posted April 24 2007 - 04:33 AM

Thank you Jack. A lot to take in, but served up in a thoughtful, easily understood manner.
Folks like myself , who have decent , but not HDMI receivers, ( Integra DTR 6.1 ) are waiting on the sidelines for receivers which will have the 1.3 and decode the latest lossless, etc. Perhaps some of this waiting is for naught since you say the optical discs will be encoded in such a way that the actual playback device itself will need to do the decoding and then pass it along through PCM audio.

As I understand what you wrote to mean these newer receivers will be able to decode these newer formats, but may rarely actually see them due to the optical discs being written so their playback device decodes the audio.
Meaning if true, any number of receivers would do if they have HDMI 1.1?

I still need to get something with HDMI switching and have been waiting for full lossless Dolby HD through HDMI 1.3, and all that that may bring. Perhaps I should stop waiting and get a decent 1.1 HDMI preamp or receiver.....

Now we will all likely upgrade our players as time goes on, so we will need to spec them out to see that they do the decoding of Dolby HD, etc. Not that it is all that prevalent, but it will no doubt be on more discs as time goes on.
Best,
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#7 of 52 OFFLINE   FeisalK

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Posted April 24 2007 - 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=831063

i'm shocked none of you have posted this already. what kind of a HT community is this?!?!!?!?!

it was here on the 14th
http://www.hometheat....d.php?t=255107

harpozep
any HDMI 1.1 will do fine, but you would want something that can actually accept the audio (some - although rare - just switch and pass thru video) and better yet perform some bass management (a lot of them don't) on the incoming HDMI audio.

if you have a 7.1 system you will want the latter for sure as the receiver can then apply PLIIx processing on the 5.1 signal
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#8 of 52 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted April 24 2007 - 12:17 PM

A lot of HDMI 1.1 components do not support it's full audio capability though. 5.1 channels? Most do. But 7.1? A lot of them don't.

But receivers with full HDMI 1.3 compatibility guarentee that. And more. Posted Image
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#9 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 24 2007 - 02:51 PM

Quote:
As I understand what you wrote to mean these newer receivers will be able to decode these newer formats, but may rarely actually see them due to the optical discs being written so their playback device decodes the audio.
Meaning if true, any number of receivers would do if they have HDMI 1.1?
Certainly, although as mentioned not all implement it to the same extent (as is always the case).

Quote:
I still need to get something with HDMI switching and have been waiting for full lossless Dolby HD through HDMI 1.3, and all that that may bring. Perhaps I should stop waiting and get a decent 1.1 HDMI preamp or receiver.....
With something like the Onkyo 605 on a recent pre-order for $399, there's certainly no reason to avoid HDMI 1.3(a), especially as it seems it handles an LPCM input correctly (my main concern). You just won't likely be using those decoders everyone gets all hot over. You'd also be ready if/when a disc is actually released in 7.1. Posted Image
As I noted in my first post, most who already have a good HDMI receiver wouldn't get much at all from an upgrade to 1.3...you don't need it to get lossless audio as many believe. But if you're buying your first, no reason not to go 1.3 unless you get a great deal on something like an Onkyo 604 (which I'm not seeing discounted much yet)
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#10 of 52 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted April 24 2007 - 03:00 PM

Quote:
but you would want something that can actually accept the audio (some - although rare - just......
I think I mentioned this somewhere here before, but this past January I spent two hours reading through & downloading manuals from the receiver webpages of Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer and Sony (or was it Onkyo?) and none of their receivers priced under $800 actually processed HDMI's audio signal, in any way.

That's a lot of receivers that don't process audio.

But this is the season for new gear to start debuting so I'm sure something has changed.

#11 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 24 2007 - 03:05 PM

Here's a good thread on what does what with LPCM over HDMI:

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=738511

And another:

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=748147
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#12 of 52 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted April 24 2007 - 05:15 PM

thx4clarifying. i didn't know that, but the logic behind it is very similar to panasonic's initial SD-DVD player the a300 or somn. remember when Dolby Digital Decoding was done IN player and passed using 5.1 analog cables to AV Receivers that are "5.1" ready? while we are beyond analog passthroughs (though 1st gen BR/HD DVD players still output analog), what HDMI 1.1 is doing is virtually the same.

you still can't adjust the levels or correct subwoofer cutoff from within the AVR, ya gotta do it in the HD player.

i'm looking into the far future when AVR's are able to manage those things internally and will "decode" DD+,TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master while manaing its levels and even throwing the THX blanket on top of that.

#13 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 24 2007 - 11:29 PM

Quote:
thx4clarifying. i didn't know that, but the logic behind it is very similar to panasonic's initial SD-DVD player the a300 or somn. remember when Dolby Digital Decoding was done IN player and passed using 5.1 analog cables to AV Receivers that are "5.1" ready? while we are beyond analog passthroughs (though 1st gen BR/HD DVD players still output analog), what HDMI 1.1 is doing is virtually the same.
That's specifically what's not happening, very different situation from 10 years ago (although this assumption is the basis for the reluctance to accept player decoding). A digital HDMI signal is sent via a single cable either way.

Quote:
you still can't adjust the levels or correct subwoofer cutoff from within the AVR, ya gotta do it in the HD player.

Not the case.

Quote:
i'm looking into the far future when AVR's are able to manage those things internally and will "decode" DD+,TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master while manaing its levels and even throwing the THX blanket on top of that.
As you may have noted above, it's likely most discs won't even allow the option of passing the undecoded bitstream to the receiver for decoding.
The future, it seems, involves the player sending a MC LPCM signal to the receiver, which then processes and converts it to analog. The receiver doesn't even need to know that the LPCM started out as...DD,DTS,DD+,TrueHD,DTS MA, CD...it all looks the same once decoded to the PCM format that's been used on CD's forever..

I'll reference this thread again, lots of good info:

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=789994
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#14 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 25 2007 - 12:05 AM

I also think there's a conception that having the player decode to LPCM for HDMI transmission is somehow adding an extra step, but it's not. The signal has to become LPCM somewhere before it hits the DACs...sending the bitstream to the receiver is no more "direct" a route.
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#15 of 52 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted April 25 2007 - 02:19 AM

so what's the purpose of all of these DD+, DTS-HD, truehd, etc.? why not do EVERYTHING in LPCM to BEGIN with?

#16 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 25 2007 - 02:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
so what's the purpose of all of these DD+, DTS-HD, truehd, etc.? why not do EVERYTHING in LPCM to BEGIN with?

Good question, and it's the same reason that DD/DTS were used on DVD's, and why .mp3's are used on iPods...to save space. They're all compression schemes, meant to squeeze data down for storage then uncompress it for use . The "lossy" ones, DTS, DD, DD+, DTS Core, etc., throw out some data in order to take up less space. The "lossless" ones, TrueHD and DTS master, both "unzip" to identical copies of the original, much the same as a zipped computer file. They take up much more space, though, so only with the new media are discs big enough to hold them.
As far as raw PCM, some BD discs do contain "non-zipped" PCM tracks. They can do so since they have more capacity.
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#17 of 52 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted April 25 2007 - 06:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey
I also think there's a conception that having the receiver decode to LPCM for HDMI transmission is somehow adding an extra step, but it's not.
(I guess you meant "player"?) Never thought about this possible - but unfounded - concern. The A/V hobby is getting complicated!!!. Posted Image

Quote:
The signal has to become LPCM somewhere before it hits the DACs...sending the bitstream to the receiver is no more "direct" a route.
I bet some people are confusing this with a digital signal......being converted to analog & sent via the 5.1 RCA output jacks......then being converted back into digital (in *most* receivers) for bass management, EQ, etc.......then back into analog for the power amp/loudspeakers portion of the audio chain. Technically-speaking this can introduce a tiny bit of signal degradation but unless the equipment is really old or really crummy quality, most people will never hear those effects.

And if they do hear something different, many times it's because the circuitry in one component was intentionally designed to sound a certain way (warmer, brighter, etc) and this is in contrast to the other component's own sonic signature. For example music heard through my CD player's analog outputs clearly has "thicker" sounding bass vs. using its digital output and having my receiver do the digital-to-analog conversion.

#18 of 52 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 25 2007 - 06:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceJ
(I guess you meant "player"?) Never thought about this possible - but unfounded - concern.

Umm...yup, thanks. Posted Image Kinda changes the meaning...I'll edit my post.

Quote:
I bet some people are confusing this with a digital signal......being converted to analog & sent via the 5.1 RCA output jacks......then being converted back into digital (in *most* receivers) for bass management, EQ, etc.......then back into analog for the power amp/loudspeakers portion of the audio chain. Technically-speaking this can introduce a tiny bit of signal degradation but unless the equipment is really old or really crummy quality, most people will never hear those effects.
I think that's exactly what many are thinking. I've even seen people refer to an analog PCM signal. Yikes.
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#19 of 52 OFFLINE   BrettGallman

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Posted April 25 2007 - 03:40 PM

Okay, this may have been answered, but humor me. If one were to buy one of these new 1.3 receivers, they'd be compatible with HDMI 1.1 devices, correct? That way, you wouldn't necessarily have to have two 1.3 devices? For example, the Toshiba A1 is HDMI 1.1 I believe: would it be capable of sending a TrueHD signal to a 1.3 receiver, which would in turn decode that signal? I'm aware that the A1 can decode TrueHD signal already--this is just a matter of curiosity for me.
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#20 of 52 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 25 2007 - 04:21 PM

The spec is cumulative. Yes it will include all the 1.1 and 1.2 bennies.


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