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Receiver 4 ohm stable?


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#1 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 19 2007 - 01:36 PM

I am looking for a new receiver for both HT 5.1 or 7.1 set up, as well as something that can do 2.1 for listening to music. My budget will probably be about $500.00, maybe slightly more. My front stage will be a Mid-Tweet-Mid set up for both left, right, and center channels that are all 4 ohm speakers. The sub is powered by a plate amp.

Requirements for receiver:
1. Must be able to power speakers at 4ohms, therefore 4 ohm stable.
2. Must have a "tone" control knob, to change "treble" and "bass". I know some receivers dont have this feature anymore, but I would like it.
3. 5.1 and 2.1 set ups.
4. approx. $500 budget, and looking for something very clean with emphasis on sound quality.

Thanks folks.Posted Image

#2 of 25 OFFLINE   Bluzman

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Posted April 19 2007 - 04:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by subynube
I am looking for a new receiver for both HT 5.1 or 7.1 set up, as well as something that can do 2.1 for listening to music. My budget will probably be about $500.00, maybe slightly more. My front stage will be a Mid-Tweet-Mid set up for both left, right, and center channels that are all 4 ohm speakers. The sub is powered by a plate amp.

Requirements for receiver:
1. Must be able to power speakers at 4ohms, therefore 4 ohm stable.
2. Must have a "tone" control knob, to change "treble" and "bass". I know some receivers dont have this feature anymore, but I would like it.
3. 5.1 and 2.1 set ups.
4. approx. $500 budget, and looking for something very clean with emphasis on sound quality.

Thanks folks.Posted Image
At the risk of bringing down the wrath of the if-it's-Sony-it-can't-possibly-be-any-good folks, take a look at the Sony STR-DG1000. Of the non-ES Sony line AV receivers, it gets some praise, albeit reluctantly. If you download the manual and take a good look at it, I think you'll find that it meets your requirements.

#3 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 19 2007 - 06:04 PM

i'm not sure you're going to find anything rated for 4ohms at this price point. i'd look for NAD, and it'll be $600-700.

if you're not going ot make that leap...
here you go enjoy - $400 for marantz sound quality on clearance from onecall.
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.

#4 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 20 2007 - 12:01 AM

Thanks for the input folks. I realize that I may have to spend more money than I planned on. But I do have very good speakers, (Dayton reference MTM set up)and don't want to waste their sound quality with a poor amp. Anyone know if Denon or Yamaha have receivers that can power 4 ohm speakers?

#5 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 20 2007 - 03:21 AM

denon - no. yammy - yes. and the yammy starting at list of $550. this is of course using the very technical method of looking at the back of the receiver to see what it lists as min impedance.

now this doesn't mean a denon or other brand won't drive 4ohm speakers. it means the manufacturer doesn't recommend it. the reason they don't is because they have reputations they want to maintain and they don't want their customers saying, but your manual said it was ok, when they've just ruined their 4ohm speakers due to amp clipping, or the amp itself.

if your speakers are rated at 4ohms, that's nominal, meaning average, so there will be paeks above that and dips below. now solid pieces like the marantz and denon models usaully have conservative ratings and should be ok driving many if not most 4ohms speakers to casual listening levels in med or smaller rooms without breaking a sweat. but the more you push the volume the harder they have to work to keep up, and they will all reach a wall. but before that wall there will probably be peaks, especially in a movie soundtrack that go beyond that comfort zone. they may be short enough to go unnoticed, but over time they can do damage.

the simple rule with any speaker/ amp combo is if you hear distortion, turn it down. that covers most sins. the questions are how loud do you want to listen and will the receiver's amp get those speakers there comfortably?

the safe route is to go with something rated to 4ohms. personally, i'd go for the NAD t743/744, i think they list for about $700. also, no HDMI and only 5.1, but you're in it for the sound right? it's hard to believe a $550 yammy will handle any speaker better than a $1000+ marantz or denon.

whatever you go for, here's a handy trick on blowing your budget by a couple hundred $$. lets say you were going to speand $500 but the thing you want is $800, ok. now the first thing you do is ask yourself how long you're going to have this piece, let's say 5 years. that's 60 months. now the price difference between budget and reality is $300. so you divide difference by time, or 300/60. so, in this case, it's going to cost you an extra $5 per month for your upgrade, over the expected period of use. what's that, nothing, a beer out at a bar, less than a value meal. for superior sound quality and features? it's a no-brainer. it worked for me anyway.
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.

#6 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 20 2007 - 04:58 AM

Great info. Thanks. I will definately go for a brand that claims to be stable at 4 ohms. That NAD may be a good value. I really want to stress sound quality. And I do agree. I would be willing to pay up to maybe 700.00 for a receiver if it is 4 ohm stable with great sound quality. Where can I go to read instruction/statistic manuals of receivers? I would love to learn more about the marantz, NAD, and maybe Denon.
By the way, which did you say was more likely to be able to power 4 ohm. Denon or Yamaha? It looks like you said yamaha at one point, then denon at another point. Thanks MaxL. Awesome info.

#7 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 20 2007 - 08:39 AM

for the most part, i just went to the manufacturers' websites for info. specs don't always specify speaker ohms. manuals usually do. any receiver worth buying will also specifiy on the back of the unit what the min ohms are. so if you look at a large photo of the rear of the unit, you can usually see what the min ohms are.

based on this method, the yamaha has listed 4 ohm min, while more expensive denon and marantz model list 6 ohm min. what i was saying is that the yamaha says it is suitable for use with 4ohm speakers while the denon and marantz do not. i find it surprising that the yamaha would actually have more quality power available than models from marantz and denon units at double the price. in other words, the yammy meets your needs on paper, but i'd be surprised if the real world power was there and clean.

NAD is very clear and specific in its ratings for 8, 4 and even 2 ohms. these are no BS specs.
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.

#8 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 20 2007 - 10:09 AM

Thanks for the clarification Max L. Now I know!

#9 of 25 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 20 2007 - 12:26 PM

HK analog AVR's will drive a 4-ohm load without breaking a sweat. They don't advertise that, you have to ask the tech's. They are pretty modest in spec's all the way 'round. DON'T use their digital stuff to drive it.

IMO they still have the best sound quality $ for $. Go to harmanaudio.com to get lower than retail prices on their gear and still get a warranty.

#10 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 20 2007 - 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNg
HK analog AVR's will drive a 4-ohm load without breaking a sweat. .... DON'T use their digital stuff to drive it.

when you say analog AVR's do you mean 2 channel or something else? which models? when you talk about digital stuff do you mean the multi channel AVR's? why do you say not to use it? not enough power? QC issues?
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.

#11 of 25 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 21 2007 - 06:48 AM

All of their receivers that have the 'AVR' prefix are analog amps. Of the models I've owned and worked with, I've never had the amp quit on me due to a difficult load. The stereo receivers should also have no problem driving a 4 OHM load. Call HK to check the model you're interested just to be sure.

The receivers with 'DPR' prefixes are 'digital' amps - class D amps really. These are outsourced modules from a company I can't recall right now. I've had nothing but problems with the DPR's. The audio quality is NOT the same as other HK AVR's - it was downright lousy. I think HK also says that the DPR's will not handle a 4 OHM load (they didn't make the amp module, so they get what they get).

In addition, I've recently had a LOT of QC issues with the AVR's, so much that I've stopped using them. You may actually have better luck with a refurb since they've reworked it.

#12 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 21 2007 - 07:42 AM

OK, done a lot of research now. Looks like rotel and marantz can mostly power down to 8ohm minimum. Denon goes down to 6. I have researched NAD, and VERY impressed with them. They seem to be very solid amps, high on sound quality, but seem to have issues with a noise problem that some people complain about on this forum.
In any case, it looks like I will be looking into higher end models like NAD, with a budget of up to 800.00 (a lot for me, but I know I want something more solid than typical onkyo, yammy, panny, or even the HK analog amps,etc).
Even though rotel and marantz say they power a down to a minimum of 8 ohms, are they really capable of much more? Down to 4? Any other receivers in the high end that will power down to 4 ohms?

#13 of 25 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 21 2007 - 10:06 AM

What does 'more solid' mean?

Anyway, if you're sold on NAD, you should look at the Outlaw amps. I'm told they are design by the same guy and built very tough.

Note that I make a distinction between AMP and RECIEVER.

#14 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 21 2007 - 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNg
What does 'more solid' mean?

Anyway, if you're sold on NAD, you should look at the Outlaw amps. I'm told they are design by the same guy and built very tough.

Note that I make a distinction between AMP and RECIEVER.
By "more solid", I just meant that I am interested in going beyond entry level receivers, to receivers like NAD, rotel, morantz, and outlaw (as long as any of them power speakers down to 4 ohms.)
It looks like outlaw makes very nice receivers, but what I have seen is that they claim to power down to 6 ohms. Do you know of any that power down to 4 ohms?

#15 of 25 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 21 2007 - 02:32 PM

Yeah. When I was referring to Outlaw, I was referring to their amplifiers and not their receivers. I'm confident that the amps (only) are built solid, like this one.
http://www.outlawaud...ducts/7500.html
Don't know about the receivers.

Sorry, I had to look at your budget limit again. I think if you want to really up the anty on a quality amp, you need to expand that budget. At 5 cheese, you are talking 'entry' as far as multichannel amps go.

As far as HK is concerned, I think they have the best QUALITY amplification in their given price point, bar none. You'd need to listen to them yourself to judge though (there's only so much online research one can do).

Personally I'd hunt for a used HK amp (or any other separate amp - there are used Rotel's and NAD's out there) like a PA5800 and get a pre/pro separately as well, but that's outside your price point now.

#16 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 21 2007 - 03:06 PM

Thanks MikeNg,
My budget now is about 7-800 tops. Really couldnt swing more. I am looking for a receiver more than entry level, but finding it difficult to find some that power down to 4ohms. I would love to go with a pre/pro set up, or even an inexpensive receiver then go with seperates with that, but again probably much out of my price range. So my goal now is to get a great receiver with great sound quailty. I will definately go look at HK. Thanks for the input.

#17 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 21 2007 - 05:58 PM

here's an option, a little above your price range, but not a lot.

first check to make sure it's available. pick up 3 marantz ma 500 monoblock amplifiers for saturday audio. they're listed in the used gear section under amplifiers - $175 ea or $525 for all three. these are very good pieces, they've been listed for a while so i'm sure they'll be eager to move them. they might throw in free shipping or a discount or some cables, just ask, it can't hurt. if they still have 'em, order the marantz i listed earlier from one call for $400. you're not going to find many if any cheaper receivers with preouts, which this marantz has.

so with shipping and no discounts, you'll be pushing $1000 for this. the upside is this is stuff with some decent resale value. those marantz monoblocks regularly sell for $150 or better on ebay. that's if you want to sell them, you may really like them and not need to upgrade. check out the specs on them here (it's the 500 not the 700). 180W RMS and 270W peak into 4ohms.

that zr6001 receiver w/ daved client appears to be a bit of a failed plan on marantz' part. i don't think people are that into the idea of using the home electric wires to transmit music to the external radio client. but what's bad for them can be good for you. sound-wise, this is still a marantz quality receiver with mid range features for $400. when you get around to upgrading to a pre/pro, you'll get something for this, at least $150 i'd expect in good condition. (one recently sold for about $240 on ebay.) you may be able to sell the client radio for $50 or more right away, if you don't want it, they're over $150 new on their own.

anyway, if you like the monoblocks and you get a pre/pro down the line, all you'll need are 2 more channels of amplification.

if this all seems like too much trouble, go for the entry level NAD HT receiver, T744 is the new model number, i believe. spearit sound lists it new at $800 OR $640 refurbished.

also worth a look is the cambridge audio 540R from audio advisor for $700. should drive 4ohm speakers, has the pre-outs, 6.1, etc..
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.

#18 of 25 OFFLINE   subynube

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Posted April 22 2007 - 01:38 AM

MaxL, I think you hit the nail on the head. The marantz set up with monoblock amps are awesome. I cant swing the full 1000.00 now, but I could buy that marantz receiver and 1 or 2 monoblocks, and get a third later.
Option number 2, which I think I will actually do, will be to go with NAD T744. I just want to make sure the new NAD models don't have "noise issues" that a lot of people talk about. They complain of hiss and a few other issues, that seem to be resolved in the latest models. If it has been completely resolved, I'll go with NAD. If not, I'll do the marantz receiver with seperate amps. Thank you very much!!

#19 of 25 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted April 22 2007 - 02:02 AM

As another option, you could get the Denon 2807. This was the lowest price I could easily find...
http://brandnamez.co....ffNo=492452167

You've got a few more options open to your now that your budget has increased. The 2807 is a nice, solid product. Do consider that the MA500's are 15 years old.

Good luck with your system!

Mike

#20 of 25 OFFLINE   MaxL

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Posted April 22 2007 - 03:13 AM

yes the ma 500's are used. i'd go that route, but with the following in mind:
1) sat audio has three of them, get 3 at once for your front 3 channels. they do show up on ebay regularly, but there's no guarantee they'll come up when you want them.
2) sat audio will give you a 90 day warrantee. that gives you 3 months to figure out if those 15 year old amps still deliver the goods - which they should. if they don't, the warrantee covers parts and labor if they're broken or full value for trade - and they're an authorised NAD dealer.
3) if you purchase on ebay, you're not necessarilly going to be covered as well if there's a problem.

i've had a great experience buying and trading used and vintage audio gear. i think it has a lot more value sound and $$ wise than most new gear. but, someone else has done who know's what for who know how long to it. there is a risk, but a decent dealer like sat audio does alleviate some of that risk. there's the warrantee and they test just about everything they sell used before they put a price on it.
HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW Newton S200 surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Marantz DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.





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