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Sony to start using Dolby True HD on Blu-ray...


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#1 of 98 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted March 16 2007 - 12:29 AM

Nothing 100% conclusive... but Paidgeek, a Sony insider who posts at AVS, indicates that Sony may start to use Dolby True HD for lossless encoding on future Blu-ray titles:

http://www.avsforum.....

Also note that there's a chance of moving to great-than-16-bit resolution in the process. The first Dolby True HD track will probably be 20-bit.


Quote:
David, we are preparing our first DD THD title right now "Stomp the Yard". As a test, this one is scheduled to have 16/48 LPCM and 20/48 DD THD. Based on how that works out along with some potential player updates, we will decide where to go from here. I am almost certain that TFE would only have been 16bit in the first place given its vintage, so there is no point in doing 24 bit on that one. Frankly I am not a fan of 24bit LPCM or lossless because consumer equipment can rarely resolve anything past 18 bits anyway. If you have seen bonafide specs on systems (player and D/A included) that can get beyond 110db dynamic range, let me know as I am in the market...

BTW the Sony BDPS1 should have some of the best specs for audio resolution because SEL went to some lengths on the design of the audio section.

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#2 of 98 OFFLINE   Jeff Adkins

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Nothing 100% conclusive... but Paidgeek, a Sony insider who posts at AVS, indicates that Sony may start to use Dolby True HD for lossless encoding on future Blu-ray titles:

http://www.avsforum.....

Also note that there's a chance of moving to great-than-16-bit resolution in the process. The first Dolby True HD track will probably be 20-bit.

Interesting, although I don't care which format is used, the 20-bit info makes me happy. PCM, DTS-MA, or DTHD are all fine with me.

#3 of 98 OFFLINE   Jean D

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:28 AM

I wonder if this ties in with their 3 year plan to make Blu-ray the new DVD standard.

Here is the article
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#4 of 98 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Nothing 100% conclusive... but Paidgeek, a Sony insider who posts at AVS, indicates that Sony may start to use Dolby True HD for lossless encoding on future Blu-ray titles:

Now it would be nice if one of the players could actually decode it so I could replace my Samsung
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#5 of 98 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean D
I wonder if this ties in with their 3 year plan to make Blu-ray the new DVD standard.

Here is the article
Go figure. The Blu-Ray disk association says the BD will be the new DVD standard.Posted Image
Thomas Eisenmann(Last updated 09/30/11)

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#6 of 98 OFFLINE   Shawn Perron

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:47 AM

Quote:
Now it would be nice if one of the players could actually decode it so I could replace my Samsung.

The PS3, which is by far the most commonly owned Blu-Ray playback device, has supported TruHD from day 1.

#7 of 98 OFFLINE   Paul Hillenbrand

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Posted March 16 2007 - 03:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek @ avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10040688
Frankly, I am not a fan of 24bit LPCM or lossless because consumer equipment can rarely resolve anything past 18 bits anyway.
This should definitely be clarified.Posted Image

What consumer equipment brands would he be referring too?

i.e. Would this include most "consumer equipment" with HDMI interface connections?

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#8 of 98 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted March 16 2007 - 04:21 AM

Paul,

don't pay much attention to his remarks about 18-bit limits in consumer gear. that's more a "theory" based on noise-floor of most consumer electronics... that the noise floor of most gear equates to the noise floor of a 16-bit recording.

However, anyone with ears can tell you that noise-floors are the total word on perceived resolution. For instance, the noise-floor of an LP is about 1/2 that of a 16-bit CD. Guess which one has a mid-range that sounds more like the analog master? Yep: LP.



Quote:
Now it would be nice if one of the players could actually decode it so I could replace my Samsung

Your samsung will provide you with the core Dolby Digital stream at 640 kbps while 2nd and 3rd gen BD players become available that provide full decoding at an affordable price (my PS3 already decodes Dolby True HD and both the Panny and Pioneer will be upgradable, as I believe Sony's stand-alone will as well).
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#9 of 98 OFFLINE   Shawn Perron

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Posted March 16 2007 - 04:37 AM

He's talking about the DACs and other inefficiencies in consumer electronics. Providing the receiver with greater then 18bit resolution does not automatically mean the analog output will be able to acheive this level of accuracy. There's also the question of how much dynamic range you really need in a home theater. Are most people's amplifiers and speakers capable of generating much more then 110db of sound cleanly? 120db? Much louder then that and you can permanently endanger your hearing. 24 bit audio gives us a dynamic range of 144.5db. This is plainly overkill for a home theater environment. 20bit is probably plenty for a home theater.

All that being said, there is no reason not to provide us with 24bit audio as long as it doesn't take bits away from the main feature. If it ends up robbing bits the video could be using, I'm fine with 48/16.

#10 of 98 OFFLINE   Jeff Adkins

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Posted March 16 2007 - 06:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Perron
All that being said, there is no reason not to provide us with 24bit audio as long as it doesn't take bits away from the main feature. If it ends up robbing bits the video could be using, I'm fine with 48/16.

I agree. I don't see any reason to go higher than 20bit, however if there's enough space than why not. Any of these scenarios (even 16 bit) is preferable to what Warner is releasing.

#11 of 98 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted March 16 2007 - 06:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Your samsung will provide you with the core Dolby Digital stream at 640 kbps while 2nd and 3rd gen BD players become available that provide full decoding at an affordable price (my PS3 already decodes Dolby True HD and both the Panny and Pioneer will be upgradable, as I believe Sony's stand-alone will as well).

Yep, my Sammy should decode the core. I don't have any BD TrueHD disks to test it out. . The PS3 and Sony Stand alones don't interest me (I am absolutly not a Sony loverPosted Image ), but I just read an article on Panasonics second gen unit and it looks interesting. Probably the way I will go.
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#12 of 98 OFFLINE   Ben_Williams

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Posted March 16 2007 - 06:44 AM

I think it is really cool that Sony will be giving us two lossless tracks to compare on this release. Fodder for the debate on which lossless format sounds the best... in theory, they should sound the same. I guess we'll have the chance to decide with our own ears!

#13 of 98 OFFLINE   AlexBC

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Posted March 16 2007 - 06:45 AM

Ben, they are using different sampling rates

Since they are going the lossless compressed way, I wish they chose the FOX way, DTS-HD MA @ full 48/24.

I really don't like the idea of dial norm and other 'features' on the Dolby encoder. Furthermore DTS-HD MA @ full 48/24 takes less space than DTHD and the core track for legacy users comes with higher bitrate than de 640 kbps DD.
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#14 of 98 OFFLINE   Ben_Williams

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Posted March 16 2007 - 06:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBC
Ben, they are using different sampling rates

Since they are going the lossless compressed way, I wish they chose the FOX way, DTS-HD MA @ full 48/24.

I really don't like the idea of dial norm and other 'features' on the Dolby encoder. Furthermore DTS-HD MA @ full 48/24 takes less space than DTHD and the core track for legacy users comes with higher bitrate than de 640 kbps DD.

Alex,

All of that is true, but I still think it will be interesting to hear the difference. Will there be a perceptible one? Also, DTS-MA would be preferred for me as well, but there still isn't a BD player that can decode this format. So, with TrueHD being available in the PS3 and the Panny in a matter of weeks, I can see why they made this choice.

#15 of 98 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted March 16 2007 - 07:55 AM

Ben,

even two LPCM tracks would sound different if one was 16 and one was 20 bit. I wish that Sony would do both at 20-bit resolution (or 24) to make it an apples-apples comparison.


Quote:
I really don't like the idea of dial norm and other 'features' on the Dolby encoder. Furthermore DTS-HD MA @ full 48/24 takes less space than DTHD and the core track for legacy users comes with higher bitrate than de 640 kbps DD.

I'm with you. Dialog normalization always bugs me on DD on DVD because of the additional DSP it forces onto the signal. I also like the sound of core DTS at 1500 over core DD at 640, so I prefer DTS-MA as the lossless route given the better sound for legacy core listeners as well as the potentially better sound for lossless-decoding listeners in the future given the avoidance of "features" like dialog-normalization that engineers seem convinced they have to put on Dolby tracks. I have a feeling a lot of these practices with Dolby are because of the default-settings in the encoding software and likely aren't often intentions of the audio engineer preparing the mix.
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#16 of 98 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted March 16 2007 - 01:54 PM

Quote:
'm with you. Dialog normalization always bugs me on DD on DVD because of the additional DSP it forces onto the signal. I also like the sound of core DTS at 1500 over core DD at 640, so I prefer DTS-MA as the lossless route given the better sound for legacy core listeners as well as the potentially better sound for lossless-decoding listeners in the future given the avoidance of "features" like dialog-normalization that engineers seem convinced they have to put on Dolby tracks.

I agree!

While I have been impressed with Dolby True HD on HD-DVD. I would rather stick with the use of DTS-HD Master Audio. We allready have a choice between PCM and DTS Master Audio for lossless. The introduction of Dolby True HD with there low bitrate DD core is not a step in the right direction IMHO. Hell at that rate Sony might as well start introducing SDDS to home video. Posted Image

What I would like to know is if Dolby True HD ends up being used on Blu-ray titles. Will PCM still be used or will it end up being Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio? Or will we see we have a posibility of any of the three lossless formats being used for Blu-ray? Dolby must have busted its but with Sony to get them to get them to use there product. To date there is only a small group of titles that actually use Dolby True HD. While at the same time there is a growing DTS Master Audio catalog growing. There is also more PCM offerings than Dolby True HD and that gap is also widening. At this point no stand alone Blu-ray players decode ether DTS-MA or Dolby THD. I would really like to know when the blu-ray players are going to actually decode the full lossless DTS and Dolby tracks? Due to tight finances saving for the updates in my HT. I most of my HD titles I purchase ether have PCM or DTS-HD Master Audio. So unless the title is a must have I do not see myself buying to many Dolby True HD titles. I might buy them for HD-DVD but there is also a lack of DTS-HD for HD-DVD as well.
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#17 of 98 OFFLINE   PeterTHX

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Posted March 16 2007 - 10:53 PM

Interesting anyone would prefer DTS-MA when they can't figure out how to get decoders into consumers hands.

Anyone complaining about dialnorm needs to take it up with the studios. Thus far no THD track has suffered from it.

#18 of 98 OFFLINE   MarekM

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Posted March 16 2007 - 11:10 PM

for now I would be really happy if on disc will be any of those 3 tracks :

PCM
DTS HD MA
DolbyTrueHD

of course 48/24bit.....

ON EACH RELEASE !!! old, new, any release, if there is such track avaible, put it there, and no such excuses like Universal, that DD+1.5mbit is transparent,or they don't see much improvement with DolbyTrueHD, sure it is for them......, I think I was one of those very disspointed with missing DolbyTrueHD on KK or fast and furious....., even if DD+ are great on those disc, one can only imagine what it can be with DolbyTrueHD tracks...

due decoding nightmare at present, I prefer PCM all the way, then due amount of PS3s as second DolbyTrueHD at this momnet, but after upgrade od DTS HD MA decoding in PS3, I will prefer DTS HD MA

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#19 of 98 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted March 17 2007 - 03:24 AM

I only have HD DVD but the TrueHD tracks for Batman Begins, Superman Returns, and Harry Potter all sound rather fabulous. No apologies. Posted Image

I'm sure the DTS equivalent would and does sound fantastic as well.

Good for Sony, but better for BD buyers getting Dolby TrueHD. Posted Image

#20 of 98 OFFLINE   Jeff Adkins

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Posted March 17 2007 - 03:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX
Interesting anyone would prefer DTS-MA when they can't figure out how to get decoders into consumers hands.

Anyone complaining about dialnorm needs to take it up with the studios. Thus far no THD track has suffered from it.

Peter,

When asked why the PCM track on The Departed sounded slightly better than the THD track, Amir from AVS confirmed that the THD track had dialogue normalization processing prior to the encode.


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