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Craigsub ratings confusion (Ed Mullen..?)


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#1 of 6 OFFLINE   Vader

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Posted February 24 2007 - 03:14 AM

Ed,

I am somewhat confused as to the relative ratings of the Craigsub scale over at AVS. For reference, I have posted them below:
Quote:
JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

Specifically, my questions concern the performance ratings of the SVS PB12-NSD, SVS PB12-Plus/2, SVS PB12-Ultra, and the Hsu VTF-3 HO. The way I understand the scale, each point represents roughly a 15% increase in performance, and that a single percent can be considered roughly equivalent. So, my confusion is as follows:

1) The PB12-NSD (single NSD driver) and SVS PB12-Plus/2 (dual 12.3 drivers) both have the same performance? The only way I can see that is if the ratings are based partly on low SPL requirements.

2) In the thread, Craig estimated the performance of an SVS Ultra/2 as being 3 points higher than the Ultra. That would put it on par with the Hsu VTF-3 HO. Same question as #1: How is it that a single driver sub can outgun a dual driver one? For that matter, how is it that the HO outguns the Plus/2 by the same reasoning? I am assuming that the Turbo's only reason for living is to provide additional extension, not SPL. so, if the Plus/2 is running in the native tune of 25Hz, and the HO runs at 16Hz (or even 22Hz), I can see where that might tip the scale a bit, assuming that part of the ratings are base on extension, and not SPL.

3) Given what you said about the advantage below 30Hz that dual (single driver) Plus subs would have over a single Plus/2 dual driver configuration, where would you say that duals would fit in this list? Craig estimates that an Ultra/2 would be roughly 3 points higher in performance that the Ultra. That says the dual driver Ultra only represents a mere 15% increase in performance over the Ultra/2...? By extension (no pun intended), is it reasonable to say that dual Plus subs would be about a 15% advantage over the Plus/2 (meaning 90 points on the above scale, equal to a single driver Ultra?). Somewhere I read that the 12.3 driver has about 90% the performance of the (current) Ultra, but by the above scale the Ultra/2 (93 points) would have a 30% edge on the Plus/2 (87 points, presumaby in it's native tune). How does that follow? Am I all wet here?

Thanx again for your expertise, and for taking the time to share your talents!
Peace... Derek

One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them.

Louvre attendant: Sacre bleu! ze frame on ze Mona Lisa broke and ze only one left iz too small. Andre, bring me ze scissors!

#2 of 6 OFFLINE   Legairre

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Posted February 24 2007 - 04:14 AM

If you're confused why not go to the souce and just ask Craig to explain it? I'm not trying to be rude I'm just saying since he posted the figures he's the best person to explain his reasoning.

#3 of 6 OFFLINE   Vader

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Posted February 24 2007 - 04:20 AM

Legairre,

No rudeness taken....Posted Image Since my assertaions are based partly on Ed's conclusions, I presented the question here, and will to Craig as well when he returns (he is currently in the hospital). My reason for asking is not "which is better that which", but to identify my erroneous interpretaion of the data.
Peace... Derek

One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them.

Louvre attendant: Sacre bleu! ze frame on ze Mona Lisa broke and ze only one left iz too small. Andre, bring me ze scissors!

#4 of 6 OFFLINE   Legairre

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Posted February 24 2007 - 05:00 AM

Derek thank for not taking it the wrong way. It also might be that your interpretaion of the data "is" correct and there's an error. Craigs worked hard on this data, I'm sure he'll have an answer right or wrong.

#5 of 6 OFFLINE   Jim Lyman

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Posted February 24 2007 - 05:33 AM

Whats wrong with Craig? Anything serious?

Later,Jim

#6 of 6 OFFLINE   Brian_cyberbri

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Posted February 24 2007 - 06:38 AM

Yes, it looks like Craig is sick.
And I agree that asking on the AVSForum thread where this originated would be best.

But if you read through that thread, you will find that the scores are based on input from Craig and several other people (I think several musicians and an audio engineer), combined scores from HT and Music performance. Two subs with the same score may have higher/lower HT or Music performance (ie., 2 "90" scores could be 43 for HT, 47 for music, versus 47 for HT and 43 for Music).

And if you want to know how a single driver sub can outperform dual drivers, look at the the F113 (basically a 15" sub) and the DD-18. Same thing for # of watts. More watts doesn't necessarily equal more SPL unless everything else is the same.

It's not about the number of drivers, or number of watts. It's the enclosure, tuning, amp, driver specs and efficiency, etc. The HO delivers insane SPL thanks to its special enclosure and port design (they're taking out a patent on the design), plus the driver. You'd need multiple subs to get close to matching the HO. Plus the sound quality is supposed to be great. Which all makes it the sub to beat in the sub-$1000 (no pun intended) range.