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Velodyne VRP-1200 or BIC H-100 sub?


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#1 of 21 OFFLINE   Ryder276

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Posted February 11 2007 - 09:19 AM

I would like to replace my Dayton 12" sub (too boomy) with one of the two choices in my thread title, which one would you guys recommend?? --or something else thats not more than $400-$500? Please advise, Thanks. Dan
R50 fronts
Csi3 center
R150 rears
Dayton 12" sub
Onkyo 604 Reciever

#2 of 21 OFFLINE   postit

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Posted February 16 2007 - 06:09 AM

My vote is for the Velodyne....if you think your Dayton is too boomy, I don't think you'll be disapointed. I'm not in mine.

#3 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 16 2007 - 07:33 AM

Hi Dan I can suggest that you consider the HSU VTF-2.3 ...it appears to be a mini monster...I have 2 HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos and I can't begin to use their full capacity...please keep in touch with me.

#4 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 16 2007 - 07:46 AM

Someone asks between Velodyne and Bic, and Arthur recommends Hsu. Knock me over with a feather. Posted Image

Of those two, Velodyne is a no-brainer, particularly if the reason is because your current sub is too boomy. Also, be aware that "boominess" is often simply a case of the sub being turned up too high or a phase or room interaction problem, though that is likely not the case with your current sub.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#5 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 16 2007 - 09:55 AM

Hi John Rice Which part of "--or something else that's not more than $400-$500?" don't you understand?...with all due respect...the HSU VTF-3MKIII has received some of the best reviews out there...if you would like a link to one of them...please let me know...the OP is all about the best bang for the buck...the BIC H-100 was designed by Dr. Hsu...thank you for contributing to this thread.

#6 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 16 2007 - 04:31 PM

Oh Arthur, you didn't finish your post with your usual "Please keep in touch with me." I feel so left out. Where's the love?

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#7 of 21 OFFLINE   Ryder276

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Posted February 17 2007 - 12:06 AM

Thanks for the responses guys, -i will look at the HSU VTF-3MKIII AND Velodyne.
R50 fronts
Csi3 center
R150 rears
Dayton 12" sub
Onkyo 604 Reciever

#8 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2007 - 03:10 AM

Dan, the Hsu is $700, so if you are upping your budget to that you owe it to yourself to look at SVS. The entire PCi line is cheaper than that. FWIW, either Hsu or SVS will give you more for your money than Velodyne. My ribbing of Arthur aside, I just find his adament "everyone must buy Hsu" approach a bit suspect.

Here's my bottom line assessment. Hsu very possibly may give the most performance "bang for the buck" but I am not fond of the construction or appearance of their subs. Still, in the end, that is also probably why they give the most raw performance for the dollar. SVS, is a bit more expensive, but still an excellent value for a given performance to the dollar, but the construction and styling of their subs is noticeably better. They are built like tanks. Velodyne, is a big, somewhat bloated company with major marketing expenses. They make excellent subs, but most definitely give the least for the dollar.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#9 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 17 2007 - 04:11 AM

Hi John Rice It is not about "everyone must buy Hsu"...I own several other subwoofers including SVS, Cerwin-Vega, AV123 Onix-X sub in White Shadow Maple...I have no affiliation with HSU or any other manufacturer of HT/AV equipment, however I would very much like to be on the payroll of any HT/AV company...do you think it is worth as much as an additional $600 for what you consider to be "noticeably" better construction...have you conducted a side by side comparison of the HSU VTF 3MK3 vs. the comparable SVS model?...again, with all due respect...I could have obtained 2 Velodyne DD-18s but the pair of DD-18s was not worth about $4,000 more than my pair of HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos. My dual HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos have considerably more output especially from 20Hz down to 10Hz than even a pair of Velodyne DD-18s...to each his own.

#10 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2007 - 04:43 AM

Oh Arthur, you say nothing to dissuade me from the growing belief that you are in some way benefitting from your vehement pushing of Hsu $600 more for SVS? An SVS 16-46 PCi is certainly at least comparable in performance to the VTF-3MKIII, and it's $50 less. And WTH does a Velodyne DD-18 have to do with anything in this discussion. Did I not say "Velodyne, is a big, somewhat bloated company with major marketing expenses. They make excellent subs, but most definitely give the least for the dollar"? Besides, in another recent post, you specifically said if you had $4K to spend on subs, those Velodynes are exactly what you would buy. I do listen, and remember.
If that were a requirement to be permitted to post here and not be slammed, there would be maybe 12 people posting on this entire forum. Robert Harris would be the only person permitted to post about movie transfers, etc. and the site would be dead.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#11 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2007 - 05:03 AM

After that, I would just like to add a summary of my own sub observations over about the last 15 years. The first "real" subs I bought were Hsu, about 15 years ago, and I still own them. As I have said, they perform quite nicely, but have extremely cheap construction. I am quite certain the construction has improved quite a bit since then, though I doubt to the point of what SVS offers. SVS stuff is absolutely bulletproof, and it IS a bit more expensive for its specific performance. Some years later (about 1996) I bought a top-of-the-line, $2,500 Velodyne ULD-18II. This thing was also built like a tank and had truly enveloping, non-intrusive output and significantly better extension than the Hsu. It was also 5x the price, though the Hsu required an amp, which was not included in the price. Then, in 2001 I had the opportunity to sample the SVS 25-31 PCi, which at the time was the bottom of the line, and the improved version currently sells for $550. I was amazed to find it actually had greater extension than the $2,500 Velodyne, but fell behind in other aspects, such as its ability to blend in as well with the mains, which are Thiel CS-3.6 driven by an Aragon 4004II amp. Needless to say, this basic SVS smoked the Hsu pair I have, in every aspect. Of course, Hsu subs have no doubt improved since then, but so have the SVS. I guess that pretty much sums up what I have to say. Apply spin as needed.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#12 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 17 2007 - 05:23 AM

With all due respect John I have no affiliation with any HT/AV company at all...I am a clinical consultant...I have enough money to buy any subwoofers at any price...and that is why I mentioned the Velodyne DD-18s...my collection of subwoofers goes with my collection of speakers...I use my pair of HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos in my living room system along with classic JBL L60Ts...and a choice of center channels from Boston or Klipsch...and surround speakers from Cambridge Sound works that are switchable from dipole to bipole operation...my office system includes Nakamichi amplification...an impressive pair of mini-monitors...and an SVS 20-30 PCi...my bedroom system has a choice of receivers from Kenwood or Denon...and includes an extremely fine pair of Mission speakers, and an AV123 Onix X-Sub in White Shadow Maple...as well as a 5 disc Sony CD changer...I could go on about what other equipment I own. How is it that you are comparing a pair of 15 year old HSU subwoofers with current HSU products?...the new HSUs are extremely well made and are selling like hot cakes...if you are not willing to do an actual side by side comparison perhaps you should refrain from making generalizations...the SVS 16-46PCi does not compare favorably to the HSU VTF-3MK3 in terms of maximum output in the lowest ranges of the frequency spectrum...with all due respect...you are in no position to determine that I have any affiliation with any manufacturers...if you wish to make certain of that, I suggest that you contact any and all makers of HT/AV gear and find out for a certainty...my income tax statements speak for themselves...thank you for your thoughts on this subject...all in good fun of course.

#13 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2007 - 06:47 AM

As I said, apply spin as needed. However, this particular exchange, not to mention anything not in complete agreement with Arthur's pushing of Hsu, has already passed the point of useless. Anyone reading may glean whatever they like from it.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#14 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 17 2007 - 07:15 AM

Hi John Wilth all due respect...if you do not have what it takes to follow up on your insinuations about my affiliations with HT/AV manufacturers...perhaps you should refrain from making insulting insinuations...how would you like it if I said that you were affiliated with Velodyne, HSU, SVS, and Thiel?...if you really want to find out about my affiliations with any or all of these companies...you should just contact them...by the way...I have KEF speakers and a 64 pound Denon 5803A as well...please contact all of the companies I have mentioned before you continue to make baseless accusations.

#15 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2007 - 07:56 AM

Arthur, I said your posts strike me as suspicious and explained why, and repeatedly pointed out that it was only my opinion. Your profound defensiveness in the matter certainly does not change that opinion.
My Aragon is 65 lbs, and it's only a 2 channel amp. I WIN!!!!! My Thiels are 110 lbs each. I WIN AGAIN!!! Your arguments are circular, pointless and more often than not, distractionary from and/or completely unrelated to the true issues. Proceeding, like I already said, is an exercise in futility. Besides, none of this is really all that important to get so worked up about it. I've provided my input, plus far more than is really needed. I was originally trying to be helpful and contribute a balanced opinion The OP can take it or leave it.

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#16 of 21 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted February 18 2007 - 04:12 AM

Unless the OP has something more to ask (hope your question was answered man) this thread should DIE.

#17 of 21 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 18 2007 - 05:41 AM

I so agree........

The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#18 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 19 2007 - 03:35 AM

Hi John With all due respect I have exactly as much experience and knowledge to make subwoofer recommendations as I need..if you do not have what it takes to contact Denon, HSU, SVS, Pioneer, Sony, Nakamichi, KEF, Mission, Toshiba, Klipsch, Boston Acoustics, Cambridge Sound Works, AV123, Panasonic, other on-line HT/AV sites, and Consumer Reports...to determine for a certainty that I have no affiliation, make absolutely no profit, or benefit any any way at all, you should refrain from making absolutely unsubstantiated accusations about any involvement or profit making from any manufacturer, on-line seller, or Consumer Reports...you should refrain from making scandalous accusations...I would love to be affiliated with any or all of the entities that I have ever mentioned in any of my posts on the HTF only...all in good fun of course.

#19 of 21 OFFLINE   aht3

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Posted February 19 2007 - 03:48 AM

I have the 2.3 in my 21x11x10 office and it is basically a lot of sub. IMO, very clean tight and accurate. not boomy at all. the scene in Superman returns where they drop the crystal in the water shales my house when I crank my receiver to about -25 or -30. The other cool thing is that in music listening, it compliments the rest of the system with a warm overtone without dominating it. I have not heard the other two but I am really happy with this sub and will order another for my living room in a few months when I set up the HT in there. Happy hunting.
Pioneer VSX 94THX
JBL Studio L890s Up Front
JBL Studio LC2 at Center
JBL Studio L820s Surrounds
JBL Studio L820s RearsHSU VTF2-MK3 SubSony 46" XBR3 LCD

#20 of 21 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted February 19 2007 - 08:36 AM

Andy Taylor knows exactly what he is talking about...the HSU 2.3 is an excellent subwoofer...I have an SVS 20-39PCi in my office and it is a lot of sub. Clean, tight and accurate. not boomy at all. It compliments the rest of my system with a warm overtone without dominating it...in my lining room system, I have a pair of HSU VTF-3HOs plus Turbos, and I can't begin to use their full capacity.




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