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I still blame the studios....


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35 replies to this topic

#21 of 36 OFFLINE   Joseph Bolus

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Posted January 27 2007 - 01:55 PM

I purchased an HD-A1 early on simply due to the fact that I was looking for a good DVD player at the time anyway, and it was $500 vs. the Samsung's near $1000. I've only purchased four HD-DVD's; the rest of my purchases have been for SD-DVD's which still look and sound great on my current equipment. (My current main display device is the 480p native resolution Infocus SP-4805 projector, so I'm sure that that has something to do with it. I intend to upgrade to a 720p IN76 within the next six months.)

Universal is only one studio, but they own a large majority of the films that I would like to own on HD. I feel that by the time the films that I have to have that might end up as as Blu-ray exclusives (Disney animateds, Star Wars, Indiana Jones) are released there will be 2nd gen DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray "combo" players available that will pretty much render the format war moot. (Or perhaps everybody except Sony will start releasing to "Total HD"?)

In the meantime, I'm still purchasing SD-DVD from the Blu-ray exclusive studios, and enjoying them. For example, I recently purchased the four
"Ultimate Bond" sets and the Disney "Cars" and POTC sequel. They all look and sound great on my equipment and I can enjoy them now. (And at very reasonable prices to boot). When the 2nd gen "Combo" players are available I'll purchase one of those, and then gradually start upgrading to a pure HD library. At that point the DVD's that will be replaced can migrate to my bedroom setup and/or to my daughter's portable DVD player.

The bottom line is that with SD-DVD's still providing a good quality experience many of us can just purchase one HD format or the other and then wait for the "Combo" decks to go under $500 (or for "Total HD" to dominate the marketplace). And that will be the end of this nasty little war - with the consumer (as usual) winning!

EDIT *** Actually, as has just been pointed out to me, the Paramount Indiana Jones movies would be released to HD-DVD and Blu-ray, so those titles will not play a part in the war.
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#22 of 36 OFFLINE   Ryan-G

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Posted January 27 2007 - 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
This is good. All studios shoul;d support both formats equally.

Your opinion. Both formats have a lot to offer, and I actually like the competion. It has pushed both sides to improve quality. What I do not like is studio exclusivity. That takes the ability of selection out of the consumers hand. While this might have been a good thing prior to the release of HD or BD, since the competing factions could not come to an agreement the genie has been let out of the bottle. Since both have come out, and both formats have had a modest success, I personally do not want the content supplies making my purchasing decisions for me. It is too late for that.

I strongly disagree.

IMO you're overestimating the consumers ability to determine what is the best course to take, for the best possible product.

If you eliminate the factor of studio support, then by default, the only deciding factor is price. J6P is completely incapable of understanding the differences in capacity, mandatory sound support, codec, or any other factor. Mpeg2, VC1, Mpeg4, they're all the same to him. HD on the box means it's HD, and all HD is the same. Case in point, a recent survey quoted here noted a significant number of idiots that thought that since they bought an HDTV, all of their tv was HD, never signing up for HD signals. Sure they can tell the difference between HD and SD, but the concept behind signing up for HD signals was lost on them. It's an HDTV right? So it makes everything HD on it's own!

Since J6P decides on price, the extremely important question of capacity is lost on him. As such, HD-DVD becomes the defacto winner.

Which, IMO(And I own HD-DVD) is a bad decision, because it's not at all the future proof choice. Should resolution ramp up, and it's very likely to do so, HD-DVD cannot support anything beyond today's 1080p due to it's capacity limitations, while BR may be able to ramp up.

Both formats should be examined considering all of their qualities, and capacity remains a serious issue with HD-DVD.

Let's put it this way, if on DVD's release we were able to achieve the same quality TV image at TV resolution on CD and DVD, and we released movies in both formats, which would've won? What would HD displays have looked like for the last few years locked into CD's capacity?

That's the question we face today IMO, and allowing J6P to decide the outcome means we'll be stuck with lower capacity discs because J6P cares only for price, and will not ever look at long term issues nor consider the fact that the other format will achieve price parity in a reasonable amount of time. He only wants it today.

Which means in 3 years, HT enthusiasts will be looking at yet another format to have to buy into to be able to reach resolutions greater than 1080p, while BR offers the possibility of not having to jump into yet another format.

#23 of 36 OFFLINE   Chuck Mayer

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Posted January 28 2007 - 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
IMO you're overestimating the consumers ability to determine what is the best course to take, for the best possible product.

...

Since J6P decides on price, the extremely important question of capacity is lost on him. As such, HD-DVD becomes the defacto winner.

Everything is decided on price. LD was a niche format because of price. DVD didn't become mainstream until the hardware price hit sub-$200 numbers. Unless HD goes the way of laserdiscs (meaning an elite format - and all that entails), price will decide the next gen format. That's a good thing. If BD wants to win at a higher price point, they need to show an appreciable improvement to the consumer for the extra cost. That seems HIGHLY unlikely, so they have gone with exclusive studio support.

Sony had the same idea with the next gen video game consoles - that the consumer was price inelastic. And Nintendo benefitted greatly from that decision. Cost matters more than ever.
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#24 of 36 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted January 28 2007 - 03:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
I strongly disagree.

IMO you're overestimating the consumers ability to determine what is the best course to take, for the best possible product.

If you eliminate the factor of studio support, then by default, the only deciding factor is price. J6P is completely incapable of understanding the differences in capacity, mandatory sound support, codec, or any other factor. Mpeg2, VC1, Mpeg4, they're all the same to him. HD on the box means it's HD, and all HD is the same. Case in point, a recent survey quoted here noted a significant number of idiots that thought that since they bought an HDTV, all of their tv was HD, never signing up for HD signals. Sure they can tell the difference between HD and SD, but the concept behind signing up for HD signals was lost on them. It's an HDTV right? So it makes everything HD on it's own!
A few points, and one very important one. You greatly underestimate the average buyer, almost to an insulting level. If all else were eaual, price would be the only factor. Marketing is much more valual=ble at this time.

Capacity and throughput are important factors, but not for the viability of the formats. The question is, will there be product that can support the average consumers pocketbook and delivery the quality the consumer wants. The answer currently is no for either side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
That's the question we face today IMO, and allowing J6P to decide the outcome means we'll be stuck with lower capacity discs because J6P cares only for price, and will not ever look at long term issues nor consider the fact that the other format will achieve price parity in a reasonable amount of time. He only wants it today.
And if we do not allow them to decide, the formats are dead on arrival. We HTE's can not drive the market, or make the sales of conent become profitable for the studios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
Which means in 3 years, HT enthusiasts will be looking at yet another format to have to buy into to be able to reach resolutions greater than 1080p, while BR offers the possibility of not having to jump into yet another format.
Maybe 5 or 10 years down the line, but 3? You have got to be kidding. Do you really believe, that if and when 4k becomes available to the consumer, either BD or HD will actually be a player in the market? IMHO, both formats are simply short term solutions for HD content, nothing else. So capacity means little to me in this battle, as the current capacity of either format is adequate to support 99 % of what will be available for the next few years. This works for me, and it is one reason I could care less if the format war goes on for the next few years. I have no problem with compettng formats.
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#25 of 36 OFFLINE   Douglas Monce

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Posted January 28 2007 - 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPhi
Price is also a big factor that these studios need to work on. I do realize that high def should cost more than SD, but in some cases more than double is too much. I know a lot of you buy on amazon, but if you dont, you are likely to pay forty for bd and 30 for HD DVD. For todd that means going from buying 6 dvd's down to 2 bd's or 3 HD DVD's

I've never paid more than $25 for an HD-DVD at a B&M store. I think all but 2 of my 23 HD-DVDs so far have been $19.95. I'm really not sure where you guys are shopping that you are are paying over $30.
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#26 of 36 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

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Posted January 28 2007 - 03:09 PM

If there are titles you want that are available in combo discs I would buy them that way. After CEDIA next year, hardware prices will go down to the point where you can consider buying both, or there will be a few more combo players on the market. I think both formats will be around for awhile. Both sides still have too much to loose and too much invested to give in anytime soon. If you have an XBOX 360, consider the addon player for now.

#27 of 36 OFFLINE   Reginald Trent

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Posted January 28 2007 - 06:00 PM

Price drives everything.....HDTVs didn't really take off until the prices started dropping drastically. HD DVDs and its players are less expensive than blu-ray and thats going to make the difference. BTW most people are unaware of content limitations of the two formats.

#28 of 36 OFFLINE   Shawn Perron

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Posted January 29 2007 - 01:47 AM

People that are truly price driven are going to stick with DVD. I don't see why they would get involved with either format at the current pricing structure. Really, a good HDTV with a decent DVD players is going to be so much better then anything they've experienced in the past that they will most likely doubt that either format will look significantly better. You can already see posts expressing exactly this in the forums here and elsewhere. By the time the truly price driven segment gets involved, hopefully this "war" will be settled one way or the other.

#29 of 36 OFFLINE   JohnPhi

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Posted January 29 2007 - 04:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald Trent
Price drives everything.....HDTVs didn't really take off until the prices started dropping drastically. HD DVDs and its players are less expensive than blu-ray and thats going to make the difference. BTW most people are unaware of content limitations of the two formats.


I disagree, as current sales trends show, bd, even at a higher price is closing the gap and now seems to be supassing HD DVD in software sales

#30 of 36 ONLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted January 29 2007 - 04:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPhi
I disagree, as current sales trends show, bd, even at a higher price is closing the gap and now seems to be supassing HD DVD in software sales
What source are you using in this trend?

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#31 of 36 OFFLINE   Ryan-G

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Posted January 29 2007 - 04:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
Maybe 5 or 10 years down the line, but 3? You have got to be kidding. Do you really believe, that if and when 4k becomes available to the consumer, either BD or HD will actually be a player in the market? IMHO, both formats are simply short term solutions for HD content, nothing else. So capacity means little to me in this battle, as the current capacity of either format is adequate to support 99 % of what will be available for the next few years. This works for me, and it is one reason I could care less if the format war goes on for the next few years. I have no problem with compettng formats.

I don't have time for a full post, but while HDTV's still haven't hit common availability of 1080p panels, computer LCD's are already at 25xx x 16xx. So if computer monitor panels can hit this size, it's not far off before we're at the 2k barrier, and looking for the 4k barrier. Computer monitors always show the extent TV tech can go, before it does.

Plus, IIRC, wasn't something north of 7k displayed in Japan last year? So it is possible, and HT enthusiasts will want it.

Obviously, there's no way for even BR to do 7k, or even likely 4k, but 2k which doesn't look to be far off is doable IMO if file sizes scale linearly and it's absolutely beyond HD-DVD.

Plus, I honestly think I'm giving J6P too much credit. Seriously, look how long it took him to figure out the Widescreen vs Pan & Scan thing, and that was purely visual. There's no way he can figure out different sound formats and capacities if he can't figure out that Pan & Scan is 1/3 less image, even when staring straight at it.

#32 of 36 OFFLINE   Bob Black

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Posted January 30 2007 - 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
Since J6P decides on price, the extremely important question of capacity is lost on him. As such, HD-DVD becomes the defacto winner.

Which, IMO(And I own HD-DVD) is a bad decision, because it's not at all the future proof choice. Should resolution ramp up, and it's very likely to do so, HD-DVD cannot support anything beyond today's 1080p due to it's capacity limitations, while BR may be able to ramp up.

Blu-Ray & HD-DVD have exactly the same maximum resolution output for their respective formats. Both are capable of delivering 1080p, which is 1920 x 1080. Blu-Ray's capacity difference will not allow any higher resolution than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
Which means in 3 years, HT enthusiasts will be looking at yet another format to have to buy into to be able to reach resolutions greater than 1080p, while BR offers the possibility of not having to jump into yet another format.

Formats are always evolving. But it won't be anywhere remotley close to 3 years before you see a newer format with increased resolution. 1080p will be the maximum for several years -- if not a decade or longer.

#33 of 36 OFFLINE   ppltd

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Posted January 30 2007 - 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan-G
Obviously, there's no way for even BR to do 7k, or even likely 4k, but 2k which doesn't look to be far off is doable IMO if file sizes scale linearly and it's absolutely beyond HD-DVD.
Neither BD or HD have the bandwidth to do 4k (Currently spected I believe at 250 mb/s). and both currently support 1080p, which is 2k (2048 x 1080), or at least the eq of HD's version of such, unless I am missing something you are saying.
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#34 of 36 OFFLINE   Ryan-G

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Posted January 30 2007 - 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
Neither BD or HD have the bandwidth to do 4k (Currently spected I believe at 250 mb/s). and both currently support 1080p, which is 2k (2048 x 1080), or at least the eq of HD's version of such, unless I am missing something you are saying.


IIRC isn't 2k XXXX x 2160? Roughly double the res of 1080p. I thought the measurement was done in the second factor, such as 1900 x 1080p.

Which, *if* it's a linear scaling of file size, is within BR's capacity with current codecs(VC1 particularly).

As far as bandwidth goes from the player, within a year or two we'll be looking at potentially 4-8x the current transfer rates.

My point being, if it's a linear scaling of file size to resolution, BR has the capacity to store twice the resolution of 1080p using VC1 as HD-DVD stores many movies in the mid-20-gigabytes range using it. Bandwidth will be available around the same time LCD's can(Theoretically) hit the needed resolution.

It's a possibility, not a certainty by a long shot, but HD-DVD doesn't offer even the possibility, it's nearly tapped out right now and it's not even a year into the new format.

#35 of 36 OFFLINE   todd s

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Posted February 09 2007 - 01:46 AM

I have decided that I will no longer be buying SD dvd's. With the exception of tv shows and some kids movies. Its going to suck. Since I would like to buy movies. But, I just hate the idea of having to double dip for HD versions. So I will rent or buy used (if I really want it). But, the studios now loose my $100 or so a month. While its not anything the studios miss. I wonder how many others out there are feeling and doing the same.
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#36 of 36 OFFLINE   Jim_K

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Posted February 09 2007 - 02:18 AM

I'm not completely cutting out SD purchases but I'm severely trimming back. I plan to still pick up the occasional older/cult (more obscure) catalog titles that I don't think will make it to Hi-Def in the next 10 years or ever.

Any new releases are all going to be Hi-Def (only have plans to pick up The Departed and Casino Royale so far) but until prices drop I'm not going to be as frivolous as I was with SD. I'm also going to be very discriminating on Hi-Def catalog titles that I plan to upgrade, mediocre transfers aren't going to cut it. I've purchased allot of borderline titles over the years on SD that at some of the current Blu-ray prices (cough Fox/MGM) just aren't worth the current price.

Any SD SE re-releases of the bigger catalog (Kubrick titles, Blade Runner, etc, etc,) titles I'm going to completely avoid and wait for Hi-Def. I'm not double/triple dipping any more on the SD format.
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