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Should early adoptors fully support Fox with their higher priced BRD?


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#1 of 70 Robert Crawford

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Posted January 11 2007 - 09:35 AM

Edit: I have split off this discussion about Fox's pricing policy regarding BRD to it's own thread because we sidetracked that previous thread which was talking about Blu-ray versus HD DVD announcements at CES.

If some of those studios don't reduce their MSRP (Fox), I'm not so sure how many of those Blu-ray discs they will sell to the general public? I'm not buying many even with my large film library. Any of us can buy a BRD of a catalog title from Warner, Paramount of Sony for 17.99 with Amazon's special deal. If you use that same Amazon deal for a Fox catalog title, it will cost you $25.15. With such a large difference in pricing between Fox and those other studios for every three catalog titles you buy from Warner, Paramount or Sony, you will save enough money to buy a fourth BRD in comparison to buying three BRD catalog titles from Fox. It's a problem that Fox/MGM and to a smaller degree, Disney needs to address.

Affordable software is essential to the success of either HD format.




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#2 of 70 Bill Hunt

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Posted January 11 2007 - 09:42 AM

One thing it's important to keep in mind... these formats are only (less than) a year old. Prices for new technology ALWAYS start high and drop in the first couple years. Does anyone remember buying $1000 DVD players and $35 discs back in 1997? I sure do. The prices for hardware and software of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc will drop in 2007 and 2008. 2nd generation HD-DVD players are already here, and even cheaper Chinese players are on the way (for better or worse). Both Sony and Pioneer hinted at CES that their 2nd generation Blu-ray players will be out this year, almost certainly cheaper. You can get software for both formats at decent prices on Amazon and other online retailers. Seems to me even Target is selling them for below SRP. Once economies of scale kick in, high-def will be just as cheap eventually as DVD is now.

I've been getting crucified by some folks online these last few months, but to me this format war all comes down to the movies. I've been saying consistantly for more than two years now, that if both formats launch more or less successfully (and I think they have - bumps aside), and if the high video and audio quality of each format is relatively similar (it is - I love the performance of both formats), that the winner of this format war was going to come down to studio support and the list of titles released. I think the announcements made at CES are... compelling, to say the least.
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#3 of 70 Robert Crawford

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Posted January 11 2007 - 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
One thing it's important to keep in mind... these formats are only (less than) a year old. Prices for new technology ALWAYS start high and drop in the first couple years. Does anyone remember buying $1000 DVD players and $35 discs back in 1997? I sure do. The prices for hardware and software of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc will drop in 2007 and 2008. 2nd generation HD-DVD players are already here, and even cheaper Chinese players are on the way (for better or worse). Both Sony and Pioneer hinted at CES that their 2nd generation Blu-ray players will be out this year, almost certainly cheaper. You can get software for both formats at decent prices on Amazon and other online retailers. Seems to me even Target is selling them for below SRP. Just some thoughts.
Bill,
You can defend Fox, but I'm not in this case when we have other studios supplying us with cheaper software which in my opinion appears to present Fox in a position of taking advantage of early adopters. I don't have a problem spending money on a product that's new to the marketplace. I'm already on my third player in these new formats and my first two dvd players were the Sony-7000 and Toshiba's first progressive dvd player and both of them were more expensive than the three HD/BR players I own now. However, I do have a problem when one studio stands out from their compeititors with higher software pricing. I've defended Fox many times on this forum over the years on a number of different issues, but their software pricing in this new format is too high and there's no getting around that fact.



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#4 of 70 David Wilkins

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:16 AM

Another issue that will no doubt slow any trend toward falling software prices, are the studio's efforts to off-set public anxiety over the format war, by releasing the more expensive combo discs (SD/HD-DVD)...and what's bound to be an even pricier HD/BD combo.

I can speak only for myself, but, even as a home theater and high-def enthusiast, I'm going to think two or three times before shelling out high dollars for some those titles. Ordinarily this would be a heretical statement coming from me...but, I'm half-way inclined to hold off buying the new Scorsese release, unless it's a very competitively priced combo; this coming from someone who hasn't hesitated to drop dollars for my first 52 HD titles. Even as an enthusiast, I'm getting tired of being milked for features I don't want or need.

#5 of 70 Bill Hunt

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Bill,
You can defend Fox, but I'm not in this case when we have other studios supplying us with cheaper software which in my opinion appears to present Fox in a position of taking advantage of early adopters. I don't have a problem spending money on a product that's new to the marketplace. I'm already on my third player in these new formats and my first two dvd players were the Sony-7000 and Toshiba's first progressive dvd player and both of them were more expensive than the three HD/BR players I own now. However, I do have a problem when one studio stands out from their compeititors with higher software pricing. I've defended Fox many times on this forum over the years on a number of different issues, but their software pricing in this new format is too high and there's no getting around that fact.



Crawdaddy

Hi Crawdaddy,

Let me be clear - I'm not defending, and have not defended, Fox's pricing policy in any way. I'm just saying that high initial prices for both hardware and software are normal for any new format, and that I have no doubt that prices will drop over time. There were studios that chose to keep their early DVD prices high for a few years as well, but they eventually dropped. It's just a bit of perspective that I think people should keep in mind.

As to David's point... I agree that unfortunately, hybrid discs are going to cost more. Which is generally why I've never been all that excited about them. But that's the nature of the beast I guess. At least THD brings New Line to the table for both camps, making DreamWorks (it seems to me) the only remaning high-def hold out.
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#6 of 70 Cees Alons

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:36 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:
high initial prices for both hardware and software are normal for any new format
That's very true. Especially for hardware and in some cases for software as well.

But we're not faced with "high prices" here: in fact, I paid substantially less on Amazon for some recently bought HD DVDs, double dipping as I was, than for the original SDVDs!
In one of the reports I read these days, Warner Bros stated that the production costs of HR discs (and especially the TotalHD disc) doesn't have to be substantially higher than those of classic SDVD. Of course I don't know if that's true, but it's interesting to say the least.

What we're discussing here, especially Robert, and I'm with him in this matter, is a difference between prices by different companies of the same technological product! And in the same period of time.

Especially Fox seems to think we first adapters will pay higher prices if we must anyway - or else they really don't care about us in the first place. Or they didn't bother to compute a proper market pricing.

Whatever. But a fact is: they don't bother to offer a reasonable pricing equal to that of their competitors. They're simply more expensive.
Now, given the additional fact that they're a declared format-exclusive studio, how does that help "their" format?


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#7 of 70 Chuck Mayer

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:36 AM

Re: pricing.

Like it or not, the genie is out of the bottle. DVD changed the home video market and the pricing structure, and Fox is going backwards in pricing. In 1997, all the DVDs were around the same price. This discrepancy is somewhat telling. The "it's always like this for a new technology" doesn't really wash, because the average consumer considers high def DVD's simply a modification of existing technology. I still think cost is a driver. No one in my immediate group of family/friends has a clue what high def DVD formats exist, or why. I'm it. Costs are going to count if they want HD/BD to become the main format...or it'll simply become the new LD.

Just my opinion as a non-tech recent adoptee of both formats.
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#8 of 70 Bill Hunt

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
What we're discussing here, especially Robert, and I'm with him in this matter, is a difference between prices by different companies of the same technological product! And in the same period of time.

Especially Fox seems to think we first adapters will pay higher prices if we must anyway - or else they really don't care about us in the first place. Or they didn't bother to compute a proper market pricing.

Whatever. But a fact is: they don't bother to offer a reasonable pricing equal to that of their competitors. They're simply more expensive.
Now, how does that help the format?


Cees

Again, I don't disagree with any of you on this issue. I suspect that Fox just feels like their product is worth that higher price, and really since you can't get their titles on the other format, it's the only choice you have. However, if people complain loudly enough and vote with their wallets by staying away from Fox titles because of price... Fox will have no choice but to respond by lowering their price. The market always decides these things. I would suggest that people keep telling them their prices are too damn high. Sooner or later, they'll get the message.
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#9 of 70 Jason Harbaugh

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:55 AM

I support Blu-ray 100% but I won't purchase a title for more than $20. Fox really needs to drop their MSRP.

#10 of 70 Cees Alons

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Posted January 11 2007 - 10:59 AM

Quote:
I would suggest that people keep telling them their prices are too damn high.
Posted Image

And counting four of those here already... Posted Image


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#11 of 70 Dave Mack

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Posted January 11 2007 - 11:51 AM

I agree, Fox, let's get with it....

#12 of 70 Dave_P.

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Posted January 11 2007 - 12:55 PM

Fox was always priced higher in these formats. I certainly remember MSRP prices of $35 for their first non-anamorphic DVD's and plenty of $50 laserdisc titles (which I don't believe ever came down, except for the shocker of a $30 MSRP Speed laser).

#13 of 70 DanR

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Posted January 11 2007 - 01:35 PM

Guys,

I have to say that I find it quite odd that you are complaining about price. The Fox spokesman said he's moving 70K units/wk. I don't think this is holding many people back, and you're probably in the minority on this.

If money really is an issue on Fox titles, being $7 more, just skip McDonalds that week. Posted Image I really think it's penny wise and pound foolish to spend $500+ on a player only to worry about $7 and deprive yourself of some awfully good titles from Fox. IMHO, they've got the best quality so far for BD. When BD gets mainstream, Fox prices will come down. In the meantime, support them and get great HD in the process!!!

Regards,
Dan

#14 of 70 LarryH

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Posted January 11 2007 - 01:36 PM

Well, price definitely influences my purchasing decisions. Fox apparently has 25 titles scheduled for release through June (per DVD Review). At $20 per I'd buy 10 of them. At $25 per I expect to buy 4 or 5. That's what's known as the marketplace - elasticity of demand - and it does exist Mr. Fox.

#15 of 70 Andrew Bunk

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Posted January 11 2007 - 01:46 PM

Fox's prices will keep me from some of their discs.; I would like to get PPhone Booth and Entrapment right away, but I won't pay $25-$30 per disc unless I have some gift cards or something like that. Commando I love so I'll get that regardless, but if they priced their catalog stuff like the other stuiods I'm sure I'd buy many more of their titles. Sell me 3 discs for $70 instead of 1 for $35, ya know?
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#16 of 70 ppltd

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Posted January 11 2007 - 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanR
If money really is an issue on Fox titles, being $7 more, just skip McDonalds that week. Posted Image I really think it's penny wise and pound foolish to spend $500+ on a player only to worry about $7 and deprive yourself of some awfully good titles from Fox.

I am not sure I agree with this. Hardware may be a large investment, but the content is were the real costs are. That 7.00 per disk adds up to much more than the content over a very short time. The nearly 100 HD disks I have would have added 700.00 to the price of my purchases, more than I spent on either my old XA1 or my Samsung. Currently, I have a considerable amount spent on content, well above the cost of the hardware. Fox needs to lower their retail in line with the other content providers.

It certainly makes me think long before purchasing their product, even though some of their titles win out over my better judgement.

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#17 of 70 Brent M

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Posted January 11 2007 - 02:51 PM

Wow, until I read this thread I had no idea that Fox was pricing their titles so much higher than the other studios. There's no way I'll pay $27.95(or even $25.15 w/ Amazon's discount) for a Blu-Ray title so unless they get competitive on pricing I'll just steer clear of Fox BD discs if/when I finally buy into the format. Maybe someone should forward this thread to them so they'll know what their "target market" thinks of their pricing strategy.
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#18 of 70 DanR

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Posted January 11 2007 - 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
That 7.00 per disk adds up to much more than the content over a very short time. The nearly 100 HD disks I have would have added 700.00 to the price of my purchases, more than I spent on either my old XA1 or my Samsung.
Come on Thomas, it's going to be a LOOOOOOONG time before there's 100 Fox Titles you'll be purchasing on BD. Comparing one studio's releases at a $7 premium to your entire disc collection of 100 HD discs from all studios is flawed. We're talking about one studio here.

I do understand what you are saying, but the numbers you are quoting seem to be for shock value. Let's say you even buy 15 Fox discs over a year or so. That's $105. Doesn't that seem like much in relation to how much we all spend on this hobby. And like I said, you are depriving yourself of some awfully good titles on HD.

Guys, put it in relation to some of your other every day discretionary "luxury" expenses. You know, the $4 lattes, $10.50 movie theater tickets, $2.50 bottled water, etc. It just seem proposterous to me to deprive yourself of 1080P and soon DTS Master Audio from Fox (once the players decode it).

There's no way I would deprive myself of watching & owning something like Xmen2 on BD due to a $7 premium.

Regards,
Dan

#19 of 70 Brent M

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Posted January 11 2007 - 03:38 PM

It's the principle of the whole thing, though. Why should a Fox title sell for a premium over something from one of the other studios? Do they think that their offerings are that much better than those from WB, Paramount, etc? I don't.
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#20 of 70 Mark Butler

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Posted January 11 2007 - 03:43 PM

I like this quote about Warner's THD:

"49% of all consumers surveyed said they would be more likely to adopt high-definition on disc given the choice of THD".

Basically what that 49% are saying is if their was only 1 format and they didn't have to worry about 2 different incompatible formats they would buy HD discs (doesn't matter if they were THD or not just one disc that worked in every HD player).

Why didn't the studios and manufacturers realize that this stupid split was going to halt their profits by confusing consumers and making them gun shy of buying the wrong one, so they just wont buy any HD discs at all. I think they did realize (the failed Sony and Toshiba talks of unification) but it basically became a pissing contest and profits be damned. We are going to win no matter how much pain it takes.
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