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SXRD beats DLP


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37 replies to this topic

#1 of 38 SeanA

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Posted December 27 2006 - 02:58 PM

I own a 46" Samsung DLP (HLR series), and continue be disenchanted with the technology due to macro-blocking while playing DVDs. I just watched "Lady in the Water" and almost every scene had macro-blocking. And it would be worse except that I had my Samsung professionally calibrated shortly after I purchased it. The calibration minimized the macro-blocking, but did not eliminate it. I even get macro-blocking on OTA HD feed on occassion, particularly when scenes are made up of mostly one color... such as a blue ocean scene.

My parents just purchased the Sony 50" SXRD (not the XBR), and I am envious now. We watched a half dozen movies over the holidays, and not once did I see any macro-blocking. I performed a basic calibration on the Sony with only minor tweaks using Digital Video Essentials. The only area in which my Samsung DLP outshines the Sony is sound quality and skin tones, but I think this can be attributed to the fact that my Samsung was professionally calibrated and the Sony was not. HD picture quality is about even with a small edge to the SXRD (perhaps the difference between 720P & 1080P), but standard def and DVD playback is much much better on the Sony. The real clincher for me was watching "Harry Potter & the Goblet of Fire". On my Samsung DLP, this movie was almost unwatchable. On the Sony, the quaility of the image was not too far off true HD.

I know this is very subjective, but I would like to hear what others think, particularly those who have recently compared the two technologies ??? Are you starting to believe (as I am) the Sony commercial depicting a NASCAR race with DLP technology as clay animation ?

And I should add that the DVD player was the same for both TVs, a Sony up-scaling unit with HDMI output. I am now thinking about ditching my Samsung DLP after only one year. I think DLP might be in trouble as the Sony SXRD sets have really closed down the price gap with DLP. My parent's 50" Sony was only $1650.
Sean
Samsung HL-R4667W DLP, Denon DVD-1600, Sony DVPNS75H, H/K AVR 225, Wharfedale Emeralds and Diamonds

#2 of 38 Arthur S

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Posted December 27 2006 - 04:18 PM

Sean

I've seen both side by side and they both looked great. A professional reviewer has tested them both and he says that DLP has greater resolution and contrast. To each his own.

The DLP was a 60 inch Phillips for $1,500.

Happy New Year

#3 of 38 benjaminBen

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Posted December 28 2006 - 02:14 AM

that is why i bought a sony xbr2....

#4 of 38 SeanA

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Posted December 28 2006 - 07:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur S
I've seen both side by side and they both looked great. A professional reviewer has tested them both and he says that DLP has greater resolution and contrast. To each his own.

The DLP was a 60 inch Phillips for $1,500.

The "greater contrast" could be true, but the macro-blocking can be so bad on my Samsung for some DVDs that it wouldn't matter if the picture was otherwise perfect. I can put up with some faults, such as color being a little off, but not macro-blocking.

I don't understand the "greater resolution" point. I know the Sony has more resolution than my Samsung because it is 1080P versus 720P. Resolution seems pretty cut and dry to me, at least in terms of most modern video technology (other than CRT).

Reviews I have seen (such as in Sound & Vision) favor the SXRD technology over DLP. That is why I suggested the Sony to my parents, and the fact that my DLP has the macro-blocking problem.
Sean
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#5 of 38 Arthur S

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Posted December 28 2006 - 11:51 AM

Sean

They are both great technologies. I am referring to John Kotches, who does professional reviews. I was speaking of two 1080 P sets. Kotches saw slightly sharper images with slightly higher contrast with DLP...

To each his own.

Happy New Year

#6 of 38 Reginald Trent

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Posted December 28 2006 - 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanA
I don't understand the "greater resolution" point. I know the Sony has more resolution than my Samsung because it is 1080P versus 720P. Resolution seems pretty cut and dry to me, at least in terms of most modern video technology (other than CRT).


Should this come as a surprise with your apples 1080p to 720p oranges comparison? Geez next you'll tell us that 720p DLP beat 480p LCD/Lcos etc.

#7 of 38 Phil Iturralde

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Posted December 29 2006 - 03:00 AM

Poor deinterlacer* (microblocking - motion artifacts) ...

*Quote from Are You Getting All the HDTV Resolution You Expected? by Gary Merson, May, 2006 Home Theater Magazine ...
Quote:
Cheap, unsophisticated signal processors simply take a single 540-line field and synthesize all the missing lines of information to create the number of lines of the display, which can be 720, 768, or 1,080, depending on the display's native resolution. This method of scaling results in a softer picture accompanied by motion artifacts. Seeing as little as half of a display's full resolution is not all that desirable. This method is sometimes referred to as bobbing

... , less than ideal blacks, limited contrast ratio and 720p DLP vs. 1080p LCOS with a good deinterlacer, better blacks & contrast ratio, ... obviously the 1080p LCOS will definitely look better!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur S
... They are both great technologies. I am referring to John Kotches, who does professional reviews. I was speaking of two 1080 P sets. Kotches saw slightly sharper images with slightly higher contrast with DLP...

In a 1080p Face-Off article by HT Magazine, it shows that when comparing apples to apples, under controlled parameters & blind testing conditions, ... that LCOS and DLP technologies both looks great! (as noted by ArthurS above).

Interestingly though, HTMag personal also notes that one of the DLP's had excellent detailed PQ and deinterlacer.

Here's some notable quotes form last February, 2006 - Home Theater Magazine issue, Geoffrey Morrison, published The Great 1080p HDTV Face Off .


Detail & Deinterlacing:
Quote:
... The five judges were our illustrious editor Maureen Jenson, copy editor Nikhil Burman, and contributors Adrienne Maxwell, John Higgins, and Jerry Kindella. Judges were unaware of the brands, the technologies, and the prices until after they had rated the displays' performance. ...

... Toshiba 62HM195 ...
The Toshiba's strong suit seemed to be detail. Even though it was the second largest display in the Face Off, each reviewer felt that its image had a lot of detail. John even said that the amount of detail with HD was "wonderful." The positive detail comments were also there with 480i DVD, which implies that the scaler is also quite good. The Toshiba's deinterlacing was above average. It had fast 3:2 pickup and did a decent job with keeping jagged edges to a minimum with the waving-flag scene off the HQV Test DVD.

...

... Sony KDS-R50XBR1 ...
Our judges praised the Sony's detail, too, although they felt that some of the other displays were more detailed. Most of the judges felt that the Sony was a little noisy with 480i, especially with dark areas of the scene. Otherwise, each reviewer felt that there was less noise and grain in the image than with most of the sets in the Face Off (trailing the JVC). The image processing was only OK, with fairly slow 3:2 pickup and some jagged edges on the waving flag.

Anyway, the Final Overall Rating** results were ...

- HP MD6580n..................Overall Rating: 88 (DLP)
- Mitsubishi WD-52628......Overall Rating: 89 (DLP)
- Samsung HL-R5668W.....Overall Rating: 90 (DLP)
- JVC HD-56FH96.............Overall Rating: 91 (LCOS)
- Toshiba 62HM195..........Overall Rating: 91 (DLP)
- Sony KDS-R50XBR1........Overall Rating: 92 (LCOS)

**Read the entire article (linked above) to see how they reached their Overall Ratings.

I'm sure HTMag will do another 1080p Face Off sometime in the future.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying my Video Calibrated (w/DVE) Toshiba 62HM196 1080p DLP!!! Posted Image

Phil
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#8 of 38 Gary Seven

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Posted December 29 2006 - 07:32 AM

^^^
Quote:
Sony KDS-R50XBR1........Overall Rating: 92

That is an old model. The XBR2 is subtstantially better.

#9 of 38 SeanA

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Posted December 29 2006 - 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald Trent
Should this come as a surprise with your apples 1080p to 720p oranges comparison? Geez next you'll tell us that 720p DLP beat 480p LCD/Lcos etc.
I was simply stating my opinion that "resolution" is a known quality for DLP and LCOS, and that I don't understand how it could be made a subjective quality in a professional review.
Sean
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#10 of 38 SeanA

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Posted December 29 2006 - 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Iturralde
Poor deinterlacer* (microblocking - motion artifacts) ...

*Quote from Are You Getting All the HDTV Resolution You Expected? by Gary Merson, May, 2006 Home Theater Magazine ...


... , less than ideal blacks, limited contrast ratio and 720p DLP vs. 1080p LCOS with a good deinterlacer, better blacks & contrast ratio, ... obviously the 1080p LCOS will definitely look better!!!

Phil

Well this is the rub for me. I've tried three different DVD players with my Samsung DLP, and I saw severe macro-blocking with all three. One player was a Denon DVD-1600 through component video. The second was an Oppo with the DVI to HDMI cable. The third and my current player is a Sony DVPNS75H with HDMI and up-conversion to 720P. The Sony actually provided some reduced macro-blocking versus the Oppo. Given that the Sony player is performing the up-conversion, I don't see how the Samsung's de-interlacer or scaler could play a role in the macro-blocking. And as I mentioned, I do occasionally see less severe macro-blocking on some OTA HD feeds.

Perhaps there is some other "processing" hardware or software in the Samsung that is the culprit. I have tried all the various picture settings, such as turning on the digital noise reduction, and nothing seems to improve (or worsen) the macro-blocking. Samsung does have "DNIE" (digital natural image enhancement) which can not be turned off on my particular HLR model.

Anyway, I do appreciate the feedback and the article references.

BTW... you typed "micro-blocking". Was that a typo ? If micro-blocking is motion artifacts, the problem is not the same as macro-blocking. In fact, macro-blocking seems to occur most frequently with static images and when the scene is relatively dark over-all. Large areas of one similar color take on a grayish/greenish hue and the image in this area becomes blocky and jumpy. I've also seen a similar effect on facial shots, with areas of the face becoming blocky and unnatural in color. I think this is called "clay face".

Finally, I don't think it is a given that a standard def DVD will look better on a 1080P set versus a 720P set.
Sean
Samsung HL-R4667W DLP, Denon DVD-1600, Sony DVPNS75H, H/K AVR 225, Wharfedale Emeralds and Diamonds

#11 of 38 CoolCatbro

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Posted December 29 2006 - 04:01 PM

Just reading your thread,
have you tried another set?
Maybe you just got a "bad apple".
Hopefully your return date, one year, is still alright to try this idea.

Seems you tried three DVD players and the parents SONY.

interesting, never heard of macro-blocking.

#12 of 38 SeanA

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Posted December 30 2006 - 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolCatbro
Just reading your thread,
have you tried another set?
Maybe you just got a "bad apple".
Hopefully your return date, one year, is still alright to try this idea.

Seems you tried three DVD players and the parents SONY.

interesting, never heard of macro-blocking.
Macro-blocking is a fairly well known issue with DLP sets, at least it is with the Samsung HLR series. You can find lots of discussion on DLPs and macro-blocking over at the AVS forum. And I've not seen a solution yet.
Sean
Samsung HL-R4667W DLP, Denon DVD-1600, Sony DVPNS75H, H/K AVR 225, Wharfedale Emeralds and Diamonds

#13 of 38 Jeff_CusBlues

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Posted December 30 2006 - 11:19 PM

I have the 72" Toshiba Cinema Series model and have never had a problem with macro blocking. That sucks that you are having that problem. I would agree that returning the set would be justified if you are still within the warantee period.

#14 of 38 Ed St. Clair

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Posted January 01 2007 - 04:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanA
I was simply stating my opinion that "resolution" is a known quality for DLP and LCOS, and that I don't understand how it could be made a subjective quality in a professional review.
"Resolution" in "review" terms is "detail" (subjective).
"Resolution" in "spec" terms, is indeed, a "known quality" [720p, 1080i, etc] (objective).
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#15 of 38 SeanA

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Posted January 01 2007 - 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolCatbro
Just reading your thread,
have you tried another set?
Maybe you just got a "bad apple".
Hopefully your return date, one year, is still alright to try this idea.

Seems you tried three DVD players and the parents SONY.

interesting, never heard of macro-blocking.

I do plan on contacting Samsung tech support this week. I did so when I first purchased the TV, but they weren't much help. A tech came out and played with the "index delay" setting in the service menu. If anything, macro-blocking was worst afterwards and I adjusted the index delay back to the factory setting.

I don't want another tech to come out and simply make adjustments with the service menu because it would likely have a negative impact on the professional calibration. The only thing I would consider is a replacement. I may run out to a local audio/video retailer with my Harry Potter DVD in hand to see how it looks on the current model Samsung DLPs.
Sean
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#16 of 38 SeanA

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Posted January 02 2007 - 12:06 PM

Just a quick update. I waited over half an hour on the phone for Samsung's Tier Two tech support. The bottom line is that they acknowledge a problem with macro-blocking on their DLP sets. Samsung is definitely aware of the issue, but on the other hand they are not offering any "fix"... and I pushed pretty hard for answers. The only resolution offered was a service call, but I've done that already and I don't want to waste my time if they have not identified a definitive fix. Finally, the Samsung tech did suggest that macro-blocking is a problem inherent in DLP technology.

I would be interested in hearing from other owners of DLP sets manufactured by other than Samsung (Toshiba, Mitsubishi, etc.). Do you have any problems with macro-blocking ? I would suggest you play the opening scenes in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire". If you have the macro-blocking bug, you will see it here. The entire opening scene is full of blocky and dancing pixels.
Sean
Samsung HL-R4667W DLP, Denon DVD-1600, Sony DVPNS75H, H/K AVR 225, Wharfedale Emeralds and Diamonds

#17 of 38 elMalloc

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Posted January 02 2007 - 01:58 PM

2 year old toshiba DLP, played the aforementioned scene with no macro blocking visible.

Thank you,
007 ELmO

#18 of 38 PeterTHX

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Posted January 02 2007 - 02:08 PM

The Samsung's scaler simply isn't in the same league as the Sony. Upconversion of SD or DVD material to the set's native 1080p display is a big weakness of the Samsung DLP. Having a single chip just doesn't cut it sometimes (and pro DLP systems use 3 chips like the SXRD).

The Sammy 1080p DLPs are nice, very nice. But the sharpness and contrast enhancements come at a cost: picture accuracy. The Sony SXRD "A2000" series is simply more accurate color wise. Fleshtones are spot on, without taking on that reddish or orange tint that always seem present in DLP sets.

Whatever contrast & brightness advantages the Samsung 1080P sets have over the Sony A series is put to pasture by the XBR2 series sets, simply the best projection sets on the market IMHO. I have yet to see an image approach the fidelity that the XBR2s provide. SD TV is acceptable even!

#19 of 38 SeanA

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Posted January 02 2007 - 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX
The Samsung's scaler simply isn't in the same league as the Sony. Upconversion of SD or DVD material to the set's native 1080p display is a big weakness of the Samsung DLP. Having a single chip just doesn't cut it sometimes (and pro DLP systems use 3 chips like the SXRD).

The Sammy 1080p DLPs are nice, very nice. But the sharpness and contrast enhancements come at a cost: picture accuracy. The Sony SXRD "A2000" series is simply more accurate color wise. Fleshtones are spot on, without taking on that reddish or orange tint that always seem present in DLP sets.

Whatever contrast & brightness advantages the Samsung 1080P sets have over the Sony A series is put to pasture by the XBR2 series sets, simply the best projection sets on the market IMHO. I have yet to see an image approach the fidelity that the XBR2s provide. SD TV is acceptable even!

Just based on my own recent comparisons, I do agree that SXRD is a better technology than single-chip DLP. But I still don't see how the scaler on the Samsung would come into play when I am sending the native resolution (720P) to the TV with my up-scaling Sony DVD player.

If this is a Samsung only problem, than I would guess Samsung has some funky "image enhancing" hardware or software that just does not work. If it is true that Toshiba DLPs don't exhibit macro-blocking, I don't think you can fault the single-chip DLP technology.

I also have to mention that flesh tone accuracy on my Samsung is one of the areas that I thought was better than the Sony SXRD. Of course this could simply be attributable to the professional calibration. I do agree that most SD programming, and definitely DVD playback, looked better on the SXRD.

I think I am going to start saving my pennies for an SXRD. Is it really worth spending the extra $$$ on the XBR2 ? Seems like the biggest difference is a brighter lamp.
Sean
Samsung HL-R4667W DLP, Denon DVD-1600, Sony DVPNS75H, H/K AVR 225, Wharfedale Emeralds and Diamonds

#20 of 38 Steve Schaffer

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Posted January 04 2007 - 01:28 PM

I genuinely hated last year's Samsung HLR series sets for the reasons you mention--excessive pixelization along with bad motion blur on anything but a pristine signal source. Toshiba dlps in particular were and still are far superior to Samsung in this respect.

I personally went with a 60" A2000 Sony sxrd and couldn't be happier. The XBR2 offers better processing for incoming 480i, single tuner pip, a higher wattage bulb (also costs $100 more than for the A2000 but the set comes with a spare). When fed 1080i there's no real visible difference between the two models. The XBR2 side speaker design always looks to me like something out of a 1959 vintage "home of the future" and I just couldn't live with it.
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