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I have two words for you...Bass Management UPDATED!


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315 replies to this topic

#1 of 316 OFFLINE   Robert George

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Posted October 10 2000 - 01:51 PM

This is really a hardware issue, but it relates to a software subject so I will post here.

Those that are claiming unusually weak LFE on the dts track of Jurassic Park should check their system configuration to make certain their bass management settings for DTS are most suited to the types of speakers in the system. If all channels are set to full range, you better be sure your main speakers can truly produce very low bass at loud levels. Here's a hint, not many can. That's why we use subwoofers.

It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix. This is not incorrect, per se. It does, however, make proper system configuration more critical. If you are relying on the LFE track to provide all the low bass in your system, a track mixed in this way will sound very weak. Unless you are using main speakers that really pump out the low bass, you should have your system crossover set to route all low frequencies to the subwoofer, as in a THX configuration.

Robert

#2 of 316 OFFLINE   WilliamC

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Posted October 10 2000 - 02:14 PM

Obi. My NHT 2.5i's are full reange and I have THX certified reciever (AVR-4800) and can honestly say that there is a problem on the LFE track. Maybe all copies aren't affected I don't know. What I do know is that I am having this problem.

#3 of 316 OFFLINE   Steven Simon

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Posted October 10 2000 - 02:38 PM

Will,

My Paradigm Servo 15 puts out a ton of bass with the JP DTS,

Something is wrong with your pressing.

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#4 of 316 OFFLINE   Robert George

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Posted October 10 2000 - 02:42 PM

Are you using the standard THX configuration? If not, set your speakers to "small", or whatever Denon calls it. If you are still experiencing what you consider incorrect LFE level, I would suggest investing in the Dolby Digital version and comparing the two. Maybe you are just expecting too much from this soundtrack.

There is about zero likelyhood there is a "bad batch" of discs out there. Even if Universal used multiple manufacturers to press the discs, there is only one DLT master. They would simply make clones of the digital master to press the discs.

Robert

#5 of 316 OFFLINE   Ron Radojkovic

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:03 PM

While I rarely respond to possible "hysteria" issues (IMHO), I nevertheless have been eagerly anticipating the JP and LW releases for quite a while. After reading numerous posts regarding the possible "DTS LFE" issue, and after reading Robert's possible rational explanation, I undertook to perform a quick test, using Robert's configuration theory.

1 - I setup my receiver (Denon 5700) to channel the LFE to my main speakers (Pinnacle Classic Gold Aerogels - same for the surrounds). The result was that I had 'decent bass' but it wasn't earth shattering. I was quote 'disappointed'.

2 - I reconfigured my setup (back to the way I listen to it) to channel the LFE to my sub (Paradigm PW-2200) and IMHO, the JP DTS DVD sounded great, with PLENTY of wall shattering and house-shaking LFE-directed bass (just ask my family who were trying to do homework).

I compared the JP and LW DVD's (various selections) and apart from any artistic variations applied by the sound engineers, they both sounded equal in stature (I am by no means any sort of expert nor do I pretend to possess more knowledge than some of the more distinguished members of this forum) but from the results of my quick test, I cannot 'hear nor feel' any lack of LFE in the JP DVD IMHO.

Maybe I got lucky with my copy...or maybe Robert is right...........

My $0.02 worth (for what it's worth)

Regards,

Ron




#6 of 316 OFFLINE   David Judah

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:21 PM

I got about a +2-4 dB difference in overall level for the DTS version. I didn't isolate the LFE, but there didn't seem to be anything lacking--quite the contrary.

Yamaha 995
Mains-- B&W 603 (set to small)
Center--B&W CDMC SE (small)
Rears-- B&W 602 (small)
Crossover--90Hz
Sub--DIY 12" Shiva (set to kickass)

So I assume the internet rumor was due to a hardware issue rather than an encoding error--much ado about nothing.

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#7 of 316 OFFLINE   Kevin Coleman

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:30 PM

Makes sense to me Obi. Posted Image

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#8 of 316 OFFLINE   Bruce Abar

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:39 PM

Quote:
Unless you are using main speakers that really pump out the low bass, you should have your system crossover set to route all low frequencies to the subwoofer, as in a THX configuration.
I am not sure, but If you are running a THX system, and it is set-up properly, only the LFE goes to the subs, and all other bass is directed to mains, which should be set on large in this case, THX's way of not producing Bass cancelations. Other than THX system, I would say all bass below 80 should be sent to your sub(as you said, unless you have mains that can produce low bass). I cant see why you would not have good bass results in ether of these set ups, THX or with small mains and sub.


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#9 of 316 OFFLINE   Rob L

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:41 PM

The THX "setup" is to set all speakers to small and have the bass sent to the sub.



#10 of 316 OFFLINE   Dan Hitchman

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:49 PM

What I don't get is that they would use the "optimized for DD 2.0 downconversion" master on the DTS version. No DVD player that I know of can downconvert DTS anyway.

If what was said on another thread was true, DTS must be upset that Universal compromised the mix in this fashion. I would be too, especially since this was the film that put DTS on the map.

Dan



#11 of 316 OFFLINE   Henry Gale

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Posted October 10 2000 - 03:52 PM

My DTS JP DVD sounds fine, although the surrounds are a tad weak.

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#12 of 316 OFFLINE   Scott Lund

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:10 PM

I think Robert George you are 100% right. My system is Infinity RS5 front and surrounds, CC3 center and a sub. I have typically left the five speakers set to 'large' on my receiver.

This DTS JP I tested tonight sounded good, but the DD version I tested had much more LFE. Then I tried what you said and turned the speaker settings all to 'small'. Voila the DTS JP came alive. Absolutely rocked the house. I think my chest is still vibrating from the T Rex. So I hope anyone else having trouble with the DTS version will try this before they start returning or selling their DTS copies of this film.

#13 of 316 OFFLINE   EricK

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:12 PM

The bass on JP DTS DVD is definitely misencoded or something like that! LOL. Its terrible compared to my JP Dolby Dig version.

However the Lost World DTS DVD sounds perfect......seems something got messed up in the JP disc.

Eric.

Added: Using a Millenium 2.4.6. DTS processor. My LFE sounds incredible with just about any other dts or dd dvd I play. Lost World had some incredible bass. Sounded like I got a bad copy of JP. The bass sounds approx -10db what it should be.
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#14 of 316 OFFLINE   Scott Lund

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:21 PM

Heh have you tried what Robert says? It might be mastered in a strange fashion compared to other discs, but when I changed those settings it made a night and day difference on my system. I suppose it could depend on how your receiver or decoder splits the signal though....but for me where the LFE was close to nonexistant it now seems even deeper and richer than the DD version (sorry don't mean to start anything there but it does to my ears).

#15 of 316 OFFLINE   Mark McLeod

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:28 PM

I thought the LFE was a bit weak compared to what I was expecting, but still not as weak as some others. So I tried lowering the amount of bass to my main speakers and it did make a big difference. I then tried changing my speaker size to small and that made even more of a difference.

So Obi is correct. There is no problem with the bass on the JP DTS DVD. It's fine, to acheive the best results, play around with your system.

Mark

Thanks Obi, You are one person I can count on for reliable information time and time again.


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#16 of 316 OFFLINE   Brian M Kuss

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:41 PM

"It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix. This is not incorrect, per se. It does, however, make proper system configuration more critical. "

"There is no problem with the bass on the JP DTS DVD. It's fine, to acheive the best results, play around with your system. "

OK, I've got a theoretical question about these statements. If what OBI is saying is right then how can this mix NOT be considered incorrect? What I mean is, in the entire 3+ year history of DVD (over 7,000+ titles) this one disc is forcing people worldwide to change their HT settings (which have been working just fine with every other DVD out there).

Why should people have to screw around with their settings? I've got 50+ dvds and every one I can pop in and play with no problem. I've never seen this much confusion regarding a disc before. If all these other discs can get it right, shouldn't I expect the same from JP? And besides, isn't the LFE channel there to produce LFE effects? Why 'borrow' some of that to stick in the front channels? If that's the case, why claim to have an LFE track at all? Just call JP a 5.0 mix then.

It just seems to me that even if this is the explanation, it's still not 'correct' and it should be re-done.

My 2 cents,

Brian
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#17 of 316 OFFLINE   Mark McLeod

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:50 PM

I agree Brian, I can usually pop in any disc and have it sound just fine, sure there are some differences and I sometimes need to bump up the center channel or the sub but yes for the most part we shouldn't have to change our settings. Atleast we can change our settings to make it sound better.

I wish the LFE was all directed to the LFE channel, but atleast I can redirect some of the bass that was getting sent to the main channels back to the LFE.

Argh, we should just all be happy that it's on DVD.


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#18 of 316 OFFLINE   Brian M Kuss

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Posted October 10 2000 - 04:54 PM

"Argh, we should just all be happy that it's on DVD."

Yeah, really Posted Image

I can just imagine the posts when Star Wars finally comes out on DVD . . .

"Those lightsaber woooshes just aren't cracking my house foundation! This disc sucks!!!" Posted Image

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#19 of 316 OFFLINE   Max Leung

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Posted October 10 2000 - 05:03 PM

Yeah, I posted a little joke somewhere about how we're all gonna hate the Dolby Digital 5.1 version of the Star Wars Trilogy.

"Where are the surrounds?"

"Um...they didn't use surround sound technology when those movies were made."

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#20 of 316 OFFLINE   Mark Booth

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Posted October 10 2000 - 05:04 PM

FWIW... My setup is such that my surrounds and center are set to SMALL and my mains (L&R) are set to LARGE. My mains are Paradigm Monitor 7s which, I am pleased to say, give some pretty decent bass output. My sub is a Velodyne 1012. With the speakers set as such, I get wonderful bass from the Dolby Digital version of Jurassic Park.

Granted, I know the concern seems to be over the DTS version... I'm just saying that I see no problems with the DD version on my system. Again.. FWIW (which might not be much). Posted Image

Mark


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