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Updated NOUSAINE subwoofer data list.


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#1 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 15 2000 - 08:26 AM



Added some,tweaked others.


Two interesting notes...

1) TN just(re)reviewed the ASW1000. This time, it's performance was barely average. I aksed him about the large differences between the 1st and the 2nd reviews(which were a couple years apart). TN replied it was either a QC issue(quality control on BW's part)...or a "decontent" of the subwoofer issue(specifically the driver). In other words --- BW has *decontented* (downgraded) the ASW1000 without mentioning this to the consumer.

Buyer Beware...


2) The parenthesis to the far right of some of the model lines indicate a data manipulation I've performed on my own. I basically eliminated the 63hz consideration from the data...so they figure in the parenthesis will reflect a 25-50hz(25,31,40,50hz) average. I performed this with all of the models that I had accurate 63hz output for.

Reason? Because almost any subwoofer can play loudly at 63hz. And some play SO loudly, that the 63hz figure can distort the overall output(avg) across the lower frequencies. For example...if subwoofer *X* hit...


25hz-95dB
31hz 100dB
40hz 105dB
50hz 110dB
63hz 115dB

the *AVG* = 105dB. This seems pretty good...until we look a little closer and see the 63hz output is 20dBs higher than
the 25hz output!

Unfortunately, this is very typical of most commercial subwoofers. Anyway...have fun...

TV


-------------------------------



All figures are for a corner loaded subwoofer, 2 meter mic distance,10% distortion limit,and the SPLs have been averaged from the maximum output at 1/3 spacing at 25/31/40/50/63hz.



VELODYNE F1800 - 112dB / 16hz~102dB__ 20hz~106dB
KLIPSCH KSW300 - 109dB / 25hz~92dB (107.25)
MISSION 700as - 108.1 / 25hz~102dB(106.8)
BW asw1000 - 107.9dB / 25hz~96dB

BW asw1000 *review #2* -101.9dB /20hz~71dB__25hz~84dB(99.9)

VELODYNE FSR15 - 107.8 / 20hz~102dB__25hz~105dB
Paradigm PW2200 - 107.4dB / 20hz~91dB(106.25)
Paradigm Servo15 - 107.3dB /21hz
HSU RESEARCH VTF-2 - 107.1 / 20hz~93dB(106)
HSU RESEARCH TN25(w/250w) - 107.1dB / 25hz~96dB *(106)
BW asw2000 - 107dB /29hz limit-no SPL given(105.25)
Cerwin Vega cvt300s - 107dB / 16hz~80db__20hz~92dB(106)
Cerwin Vega LW12 - 106dB / 20hz~89dB(103.4)
POLK 650 -105.9dB / 25hz~90dB(103.55)
VELODYNE ct150 - 105.3dB / 20hz~82dB(103.875)
JBL D112 - 105.2dB / 25hz~95dB
KLIPSCH KSW12 - 104.9dB / 25hz~90dB(102.4)
Boston Acoustics PV800 - 104.4 / 20hz~85dB(103dB)
PSB subsonic 3i - 104dB /28hz limit-no SPL given(101.25)
Phase Technology PC500(towers) - 103.6dB
Sound Dynamics rts1200 - 102.1dB /25hz~92dB(100.125)
VELODYNE VA1012 - 102dB / 29hz-no SPL given.(101.25)
ENERGY ES12xl - 101dB /28hz-no SPL given(99.75)
VELODYNE ct120 - 101dB / 20hz~87dB(99.75)
MK - mx105 -100.6dB / 25hz~86dB
ATLANTIC TECH 272 PBM - 100.5dB/ 20hz~85dB(99.375)
INFINITY hps250 - 100.2dB / 25hz~82dB(98.25)
SUNFIRE Jr. - 100dB/25hz~95dB(97.5)
VELODYNE FSR12 - 99.7dB / 20hz~94dB
POLK RMDS-1 - 98.6dB / 25hz- 77dB(96.25)
VELODYNE FSR10 - 98.4dB / 20hz~92dB
Paradigm PDR10 - 98dB / 25hz - no SPL given(95.25)
MIRAGE frx s10 - 97dB / 25hz~84dB
JAMO sw505 - 97dB
Klispch KSW10 - 96.9dB / 25hz~85dB(94.875)
TANNOY PS110 - 96.8dB / 20hz~71dB__25hz~84dB(99.9)
CANTON AS25 - 96.8dB / 25hz~80dB(94.875)
Atlantic technology 4.5 - 96dB / 25hz~82dB(93.5)
MK V-1250thx - 96dB / 25hz~86dB
Paradigm 90P(towers) - 95dB / 20hz - no SPL given
ACI titan - 96dB / 25hz~80dB(93.5)
Aura Lss-107A - 95.2dB / 25hz~73dB
Celestion cswII - 95dB / 25hz~78dB
ENERGY Encore8 -94.4dB / 25hz~78dB(92.3)
ENERGY XL8 - 94dB / 25hz~78dB
POLK PS-120 - 94dB / 32hz -no SPL given
Wharfedale Modus - 93.1dB
DEF TECH BP2002TL Tower - 92.3dB / 25hz ~80dB (single tower)
Cerwin Vega hts15 - 89dB (107 from 40-100hz) / 39hz
DEF TECH Pro Tower400 - 89dB / 25hz~81dB (single tower)

-----------the following use a 25-50hz range----------

Boston Acoustics VR2000 -109dB
Hsu Research 12V (150w) -106.5dB / 25hz - no SPL given
Cerwin Vega HT-PWR12 -105.9dB / 25hz - no SPL given
BW asw800 -105.1dB / 26hz - no SPL given
Klipsch SW12 series2 -104.6dB ~(32-50hz) / 32hz - no SPL given
ADS ms3 -104dB
Phase Technology 1.0 Octave -103.3dB / 25hz -no SPL given
Velodyne VA-1215x -102.6dB / 25hz - no SPL given
BAGEND 18" -102.5dB *
MK MX-125 101.8 - dB / 25hz - no SPL given
TRIAD Silver - 100.2dB / 25hz - no SPL given
PBS Subsonic III - 100.1dB / 25hz - no SPL given
SUNFIRE <100dB
MK V75 MarkII -98.1dB
Allison NL-5400P -96.4dB / 25hz -no SPL given
Altec Lansing PSW10 -95.5dB /32hz - no SPL given
KEF 30B AV - 93.5 dB ~(32-50hz) / 32hz - no SPL given


(*) denotes minor extrapolation applied(by myself).


---the following use a 31hz to 63hz range.---


Boston Acoustics cr400 - 99dB / 25hz - no SPL given
Paradigm PS-1200 -98dB / 25hz~91.4dB **
Phase Technology power10 -98dB / 25hz-no SPL given
Acoustic Research S12ho - 97dB / 32hz-no SPL given
Mirage PS-12 - 96dB / 32hz -no SPL given
Sound Dynamics RTS-800 - 95dB / 32hz~92dB
MK vx-7 - 89dB / 32hz-no SPL given
Audiosource SW eleven - 88dB / 32hz~78dB

---the following use a 31hz to 80hz range.---


POLK psw150 - 105.4dB
MB Quart D1200si - 104dB
NHT sw 1p - 101.9dB
BOSE am15 bass module - 100dB / 32hz ~97dB
INFINITY BU120 - 100dB / 32hz~90dB
MIRAGE PS-8 - 99dB / 32hz~90.7dB
Sound Dynamics rts800 - 98dB
PSB Subsonic 1 - 97dB
Paradigm LEGEND tower(10"-100w built-in sub) -93.1dB


NOUSAINE's IB design - (12-63hz) - 120dB

The four DIY setups NOUSAINE reviewed in the
JAN-1999 AUDIO...(all 25-63hz)

RK(4-18s) - 126dB
TH(4-15s) - 116dB
RP(2-18s) - 107dB
TP(8-12s) - 123dB


--- the following are extrapolations that I
have conducted concerning the infromation I
have on the subwoofers...while not verified, I
do feel the figures should be fairly accurate,all
figures are assuming a 25-63hz range.(unless
otherwise noted)

TV's 30" ICBM - (1200w) - 123dB
TV's 18" DIY - (400w) - 112dB

Ron Stimpson's Va-*clone*(300w) - 112dB

HSU RESEARCH TN20(w/500w amp) - 108.5


Stan "the man"

25-63hz - approx 135dB.
------------------------------------------------




#2 of 18 Bob_M

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Posted April 15 2000 - 11:04 AM

TV,

Thanks for all the work on this list. One question, couldn't we merge you second set of subs with the first since you eliminated the 63Hz number on the first?

Bob

#3 of 18 Ned

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Posted April 15 2000 - 01:24 PM

Tom-

where would you say is the cutoff for what you would deem acceptable performance? Only the top 5 seem to perform well at all, the rest seem like a bunch of overpriced, under-performing crap. No offense to the other owners, I myself have a definitive tech pf1500 that is adequate at best :

#4 of 18 Drew Bethel

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Posted April 15 2000 - 01:55 PM

TV, very informative and eye opening data! One question, how is the 10% limit distortion test accomplished?
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#5 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 15 2000 - 01:56 PM



>>>TV,
Thanks for all the work on this list. One question, couldn't we merge you second set of subs with the first since you eliminated the 63Hz number on the first?

Bob<<<

Hey Bob---long way from that SMR debate I was involved in a while back huh?
Good to see you in this neck of the wwwoods, I think you'll like it around here.

I guess I could keep the original data on the 25-63hz list, and move my *extra*(25-50hz)data down to the original 25-50hz list. I'll try that next time I update it and see if it makes it more intuitive.



>>>Tom-
where would you say is the cutoff for what you would deem acceptable performance?<<<


Well, *acceptable* can mean almost anything. *Reference* bass = 115dB/listening positions/20-23hz. And that's with all your speakers set to large. If you reroute the lowest bass from your main speakers to your subwoofer(s)...you need more like 121-123dBs at the seats.

So---we're looking at 4-8 VELODYNE 18" servos...all stacked in a good corner...and all going full throttle.


With the recent (surprising) performance from the small MISSION and VTF-2(in the latest SV)...using a pair of either of those units would offer extremely good bass for the $1000 range.


>>> Only the top 5 seem to perform well at all,<<<

Well, if someone rarely listens at LOUD levels...than they may never use the extra headroom one of the *top* subwoofers provide. The VELODYNE ct120 for instance...nice subwoofer with good extension and decent output. For moderate listening levels in a small room, the ct120 would be fine.



>>>the rest seem like a bunch of overpriced, under-performing crap. No offense to the other owners, I myself have a definitive tech pf1500 that is adequate at best :<<<


Most of the newer models perform OK , some of the older stuff was pretty lame. For cost effective woofing, there's some really decent options now...

VTF-2
MISSION
JBL D series

But to get really low/loud(anything NEAR reference at
20hz for instance)...still requires a LOT of money.

TV





#6 of 18 Drew Bethel

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Posted April 15 2000 - 02:02 PM

TV, I think you missed my question above. But one more, the ct120 is louder than the 150 at 20hz??? How could this be?
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#7 of 18 Arthur S

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Posted April 15 2000 - 02:04 PM

I sent Ron Epstein a note asking that this list be made one of the Harware Archives. Is there anyone else who thinks this would be a good thing to do? If so, perhaps expressing your support in this thread will help it to happen. Artie.

#8 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 15 2000 - 02:04 PM


>>>TV, very informative and eye opening data! One question, how is the 10% limit distortion test accomplished?<<<


TN uses a special *ramped* tone burst. I think Keele originally began using it...and the same test tones are on the SYN-AUD-CON test CD (I believe). TN uses 1/3 octave spaced bursts(centered at 25/31/40/50/62hz)...and increases the volume of the subwoofer until his mic(placed at nearfield for THD)measures 10% THD.


TV



#9 of 18 Joe_Jensen

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Posted April 15 2000 - 04:42 PM

TV,
Any test data on the new Aerial sub?...joe

#10 of 18 Bob_M

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Posted April 16 2000 - 01:52 AM

Hey TV,

Yes it is a long way from SMR. I still think there may be more to subs than low, loud and clean but I enjoy your data and understand it's importance. Thanks for the welcome.

Bob

#11 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 16 2000 - 02:56 AM


>>>But one more, the ct120 is louder than the 150 at 20hz??? How could this be?<<<


Ask VELODYNE. I think both are slot-ported. It seems VEL tuned the 150 a little higher than the ct120.

That surprised me when I first saw it too.



>>>
TV,
Any test data on the new Aerial sub?...joe<<<


No objective performance data. It's basically a relatively big ( 4 cubic foot) ported enclosure using a
single 12" long throw driver, a single 4" flared port,and
one heck of a nice amp with some cool built in EQ options.

I'd expect this to work really well actually. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the approx equal to a 18" servo dwon to about 22-25hz or so. Under that, and I think it will be port limited. 4-5 thousand dollars though?---yikes!

Someone could probably *DIY* this design for what , maybe
$600 with as much or more amp power? You could add one of those BEHRINGER digital parametrics that Martin was talking about for another buck and a half. Figure $750. And the BEHRINGER would offer much more flexixibility than the single band EQ found on the AERIAL.

OF course, the AERIAL looks really cool...so I guess that might be worth an extra $4000 to some folks.




>>>Hey TV,
Yes it is a long way from SMR. I still think there may be more to subs than low, loud and clean<<<


Oh yeah...once you make sure you have the extension/headroom requirements nailed...you can
see if there's a way to lower GD, or maybe consider
the phase and the overall *Q* of the design. But
the best-designed subwoofer in the world won't be
worth a crap once it exceeds it's extension/headroom
limits.

>>>but I enjoy your data and understand it's importance. Thanks for the welcome.

Bob<<<

Thanks Bob , just remember...adding a second identical
powered subwoofer will add about 5.5dB of extra headroom(assuming the enclosures are placed near one another)...but don't try to tell the SMR *experts* that.

TV





#12 of 18 Drew Bethel

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Posted April 16 2000 - 11:11 AM

TV, do you think 10% distortion limit for TN's tests is a little to strict? Especially for movies...10% might be okay for music...IMO.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#13 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 16 2000 - 01:33 PM


>>>TV, do you think 10% distortion limit for TN's tests is a little to strict? Especially for movies...10% might be okay for music...IMO.<<<


I think it's a pretty good number to use...but I understand your POV. It might be cool to use 2 seperate HD limits? Say 3-5% for odds, and 10-15% for evens. Even order harmonics aren't as crappy sounding as the odds, so you could have some pretty high 2nd order harmonics and the woof might still sound really good to all but the most critical listener.

BTW:

Harmonics are based on even and odd orders. Run a 20hz sine into a woof, and along with the 20hz fundamental(which is also considered the 1st harmonic)...the subwoofer will produce various amounts of unwanted *harmonics*. The EVEN orders are 2nd,4td,6th,ect. the ODD orders are 3rd,5th,7th,ect. For the 20hz sine, the harmonics would be...

40hz-2nd
60hz-3rd
80hz-4th
100hz-5th

and so on.

A high level of harmonics will also help the listeners *locate* the subwoofer...since the harmonics aren't attneuated by any crossovers in the subwoofer signal stream.

10% of the second harmonic might not be a big deal for the *CHUNGO* footsteps in DETROIT ROCK CITY(what great use of the soundtrack huh?)....but 5% of the third would probably be noticable in the same scene(even to a casual listener)

The reasons for distrotion would be a thread onto itself...baffle flex,driver moter limits,amp clipping,port compression...

But USUALLY , once 10% is reached...things get pretty ugly soon afterwards. For example...I spent about 3 hours GP(ground planing)various drivers against one another yesterday. When you're running the volume up, watching the THD readout on the laptop...you might need to turn the *gain* knob quite a bit to go from 5% THD to 10% THD...but once 10% is hit, bump the knob a smidge...and the THD typically skyrockets.

An interesting side note to this is sideshow bob's(Carver) early SUNFIRE examples. The initial units used an active servo feedback loop. Unfortunately, Bob quickly found out that the little cubes didn't play very loud down low....hmm....what to do,what to do?

Easy, eliminate the servo circuitry...let the distortion trick the buyers into thinking the little cube was fooling mother nature. TN measured a LOT of THD, and Dr. Hsu posted some GP data he performed on the first SUNFIRE a couple years ago.

For such a small cube, it's a really good unit. But compared to other (quality)subs in the same price range --- the little cube ain't going to be near as clean.

Now...the VELODYNE servos...?

They claim something wack ... like 120dBs at <1% thd
in some of their ads? Right, and the checks' in your
mouth.

Ultra low THD...typically <5%,but not at 120dBs. Another
problem with the VELODYNEs is the ULTRA-anal limiting the servo circuitry forces on the signal. Sure THD is low(some think TOO low)...but the input signal is clamped down so hard...you're going to experience another form of *distortion*. Distortion in this case meaning an undesirable alteration of the input signal. The VELS use a 8:1 *compression ratio*(which would be good for a blown RAT on pump gas---but not for your sub!)...this means once the subwoofer nears it's limits...the orignal signal is altered. For every 8dBs it SHOULD increase in level---the VELs typically let 1dB through. So SURE distortion is keep under control, but there's some definite *hanky-panky* going on with input signal too.


Anyway, I think the 10% limit TN uses is ok.

TV



#14 of 18 Bob_M

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Posted April 16 2000 - 02:46 PM

TV


Oh yes I remember that one. All kidding aside there is some good stuff of there. For example they just put an article entitled "Blowing the Lid off...Home theater Receivers". This article takes a look at the build quality of 3 or 4 receivers from the inside.
http://smr-home-theatre.org/blowing

So which sub or subs at the top of the list do you like? Any favorites?

Bob

#15 of 18 Seungsoo Hwang

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Posted April 17 2000 - 01:26 PM

Does Stan "the man" have a website where his beast can be seen at?

#16 of 18 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 17 2000 - 02:03 PM



>>>So which sub or subs at the top of the list do you like? Any favorites?<<<


Based on price/performance ratio...

Gotta love the HSUs and the little MISSSION. The VELs are squeaky-clean,but carry a hefty price.The JBL D112 was available for <$300 street for a while---not bad.Boston acoustics,and Paradigm always seem to offer a lot for the price. Ditto with BW(except for the *new* asw1000?) and Klipsch.


>>>Does Stan "the man" have a website where his beast can be seen at?<<<


Stan's had some problems with people asking him for his ideas about a particular design---and then building the design to Stan's *specs*---and then forgetting all about the origins of the design.

In other words --- he's kinda private about the particulars at this point. I know there's like 7-8 horsepower of amp, modified 18" drivers,and mega -flow
ports that have hand molded flaring...can't
mention much more.


Stan was almost entirely responsible for my 30" boom of doom though. Here's a shot of that if you haven't seen it yet.

30"(id) sonotube, about 66" high. 4 12" HSU 1201 drivers , a single 12" port ---34" long. The port is bigger than an entire HSU TN25 subwoofer btw. With
a single MACKIE M-1200...I get a *coasting* 120dB
at the seats...16hz and up.Stan warned me the 12"(non
flared) port would compress at high output...and he
was right(go figure?). Although I've tried a couple tricks to aid in port flow dispersion...I gotta change over to a 15" port when I replace the HSUs with some new 12s.

btw---the 12" port has what--like 450 inches of flow area...?

That's like 25 4" ports? And I'm still farting at
high output---low frequency demos. So...pardon my
grin when I see guys suggesting a single non-flared
4" port per 12" driver will work fine.


In this picture...the tube has just had it's endcaps glued in, the port is siliconed in,and you can see the driver cutouts for the dual 12s on each end of the enclosure.


Posted Image


Stan big *guns* have about the same output as 4-8 of these 30" monsters do...use your imagination!


TV




#17 of 18 Roger Clark

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Posted April 17 2000 - 02:25 PM

Tom,

================================================== =========
"The VELS use a 8:1 *compression ratio*(which would be good for a blown RAT on pump gas---but not for your sub!)..."
================================================== =========

Geez, you're cracking me up big time, I haven't heard that phrase in at least 25 years. Don't tell me you are/were into hot rods too!!! No wonder you like low loud sounds so much!

Great data, printing that one out...

Roger

System: Denon 3808CI, Samsung HL67A750, Toshiba XA2, JVC HR-5400U SVHS
DirecTV H-20, Phase Linear 8000 Turntable
Polk RT2000P mains, Polk CS350 Center, Polk F/X 500i Dipole Surrounds
SVS PC13-Ultra Subwoofer, Pronto Remote

#18 of 18 Parker Clack

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Posted April 17 2000 - 05:55 PM

I am going to archive this thread in the Hardware Archives.

Parker

"I tried to get my medical records from the company but they say they

are confidential and can only be released to other insurance companies,

pharmaceutical​ reps, suppliers of medical equipment and for some

reason the RNC."