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Dolby TrueHD audio out....just HDMI??


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#1 of 31 OFFLINE   alexHa

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Posted October 21 2006 - 07:42 AM

If my NAD T753 receiver has no hdmi inputs, just coax and opticial in for audio, does this mean I will not get to experience Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD??? My NAD has 7.1 analog in and 5.1 analog in........What about Dolby digital plus. I am probaby going to get the HDDVD xbox 360 add-on....... All these new audio formats are confusing as hell.

#2 of 31 OFFLINE   dpippel

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Posted October 21 2006 - 09:40 AM

Nevermind.

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#3 of 31 OFFLINE   Kevin. W

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Posted October 21 2006 - 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexHa
If my NAD T753 receiver has no hdmi inputs, just coax and opticial in for audio, does this mean I will not get to experience Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD??? My NAD has 7.1 analog in and 5.1 analog in........What about Dolby digital plus. I am probaby going to get the HDDVD xbox 360 add-on....... All these new audio formats are confusing as hell.

Just connect the A1 to your receiver via the analog connects and you'll be fine. The Xbox 360 won't allow for the new audio formats since the connection is optical, unless MS comes out with a new HDMI cable and updates the units via a firmware.

#4 of 31 OFFLINE   alexHa

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Posted October 21 2006 - 03:20 PM

do the analog connections give the same quality sound as the hdmi connection? would the 5.1 analog be better then the optical out is what i am getting at.....

#5 of 31 OFFLINE   mfabien

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Posted October 22 2006 - 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexHa
do the analog connections give the same quality sound as the hdmi connection? would the 5.1 analog be better then the optical out is what i am getting at.....

The 5.1 multichannel analogs provide mush better sound for:

- CD playback. In fact an HD DVD player is an extraordinary CD player (and DVD-A, if you select the DTS surround track... the high resolution is not available... but LPCM sound over analogs is uncompressed).

- For certain standard DVD's the analogs offer a much better sound, examples, Diana Krall's "Live in Paris" and Yanni's "Concert Event", the latter being in the WOW category

- And the only way to get DD TrueHD and DTS-HD, if your receiver does not have HDMI inputs/output. But if you have a receiver with HDMI, the sound formats could be for up to 8.1
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#6 of 31 OFFLINE   dpippel

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Posted October 22 2006 - 02:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexHa
do the analog connections give the same quality sound as the hdmi connection? would the 5.1 analog be better then the optical out is what i am getting at.....
In your first post you said that you were probably getting the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on. Does it have 5.1 analog outputs and/or the ability to decode DD+ and Dolby TrueHD? I don't think so.

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#7 of 31 OFFLINE   alexHa

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Posted October 22 2006 - 11:38 AM

well if i can get dolby true hd and dtshd thru analogs, ill prob not get an xbox addon. ill wait it out for a more affordable hddvd player..

#8 of 31 OFFLINE   mfabien

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Posted October 22 2006 - 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexHa
well if i can get dolby true hd and dtshd thru analogs, ill prob not get an xbox addon. ill wait it out for a more affordable hddvd player..

...then the time to find one is now. The G2 player HD-A2 will not have the analogs, so, you must find an HD-A1 which is still in stock but no longer produced.

The HD-A1 is now sold at a discount.
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#9 of 31 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted November 06 2006 - 01:05 AM

Quote:
If my NAD T753 receiver has no hdmi inputs, just coax and opticial in for audio, does this mean I will not get to experience Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD??? My NAD has 7.1 analog in and 5.1 analog in........What about Dolby digital plus.

Since the HD-A1 does not have HDMI 1.3 you can not use HDMI for Dolby True HD or DTS-HD. The same holds true for Blu-ray players as well. The only way to get Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD to a reciever is by using the 5.1 analog outs. The only Blu-ray player that will output Dolby True HD or DTS-HD via its analog outputs is the Panasonic, unless Sony and Pioneer add that feature to there players as well. Also the Toshiba HD-DVD player will not decode DTS-HD, I believe it will only send out the core DTS signal which would be 1.5mb DTS.

The upcoming Toshiba HD-XA2 and the PS3 are the only HD products that will pass the new lossless audio via HDMI 1.3. We will have to see how long it takes Blu-ray makers to upgrade players to include HDMI 1.3?
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#10 of 31 OFFLINE   mfabien

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Posted November 06 2006 - 01:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Since the HD-A1 does not have HDMI 1.3 you can not use HDMI for Dolby True HD or DTS-HD. The same holds true for Blu-ray players as well. The only way to get Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD to a reciever is by using the 5.1 analog outs. The only Blu-ray player that will output Dolby True HD or DTS-HD via its analog outputs is the Panasonic, unless Sony and Pioneer add that feature to there players as well. Also the Toshiba HD-DVD player will not decode DTS-HD, I believe it will only send out the core DTS signal which would be 1.5mb DTS.

The upcoming Toshiba HD-XA2 and the PS3 are the only HD products that will pass the new lossless audio via HDMI 1.3. We will have to see how long it takes Blu-ray makers to upgrade players to include HDMI 1.3?

Sorry to correct you but DD TrueHD and DTS-HD CORE are accessible with HDMI 1.1 also. Page 59 of the Owner's manual.
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#11 of 31 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted November 06 2006 - 03:09 AM

Quote:
Sorry to correct you but DD TrueHD and DTS-HD CORE are accessible with HDMI 1.1


And I did say it would read the DTS core but wouldn't actually do DTS-HD lossless.

Quote:
Also the Toshiba HD-DVD player will not decode DTS-HD, I believe it will only send out the core DTS signal which would be 1.5mb DTS.

Right but what are you basically looking at if you output the core of DTS-HD? You basically have DTS 1.5mb/sec 5.1 and standard Dolby Digital when using anything under HDMI 1.3. HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 will not pass the full lossless audio of Dolby True HD or DTS-HD Master Audio. And while the HD-DVD player will decode Dolby True HD with the 2.0 firmware update. It will not decode DTS-HD 5.1 lossless even over the analog outputs. There are no DTS-HD releases on HD-DVD even though Sky Captain was labled as DTS-HD. So while it may be convenent to send the core of DT-HD and DTS-HD via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. IMHO there is no other advantage to using the HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 for lossless audio since you are not actually getting lossless to your reciever that way. So what I said about needing HDMI 1.3 for lossless Dolby and DTS is true. You can also downconvert Dolby True HD to 1.5mb DTS via optical digital output as well. That basically takes the DT-HD core and converts it to DTS. And DT-HD via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 is basically nothing more than standard everyday Dolby Digital.



Without HDMI 1.3 the only way to hear Dolby True HD or DTS-HD as lossless audio is if your player can internally decode ether format. And send it out of the players analog outputs!
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#12 of 31 OFFLINE   mfabien

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Posted November 06 2006 - 04:19 AM

The HD-A1 decodes DD TrueHD and DTS-HD Core and can deliver either one over 5.1 multichannel analogs or HDMI 1.1.

...I am an owner of HD-A1 and think I know what I'M talking about!

As for DTS-HD MA, we could very well have an update down the road.
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#13 of 31 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted November 06 2006 - 08:44 AM

Quote:
The HD-A1 decodes DD TrueHD and DTS-HD Core and can deliver either one over 5.1 multichannel analogs or HDMI 1.1.

...I am an owner of HD-A1 and think I know what I'M talking about!

As for DTS-HD MA, we could very well have an update down the road.

Yes the player will send out the core of Dolby True HD and DTS-HD as PCM mulichannel via HDMI. And its just that the core of the lossless surround track. That does not mean you are actually getting the untouched lossless audio to your reciever as Dolby True HD or DTS-HD Master Audio. When the next generation recievers and pre/pros come out next year with HDMI 1.3. See if the Dobly True HD or DTS-HD is triggered on the reciever or pre/pro using HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 using your HD-A1 player. I bet the reciever will light up as Dolby Digital not Dolby True HD or DTS not DTS-HD!

And while you will get surround audio via the HDMI cable its multichannel PCM not actual Dolby True HD being sent to your reciever. I to own the Toshiba HD-A1 and I use a HDMI to my HDTV. I use analog 5.1 outputs to listen to Dolby True HD. That is the only way currently to actually hear the Dolby True HD track without converting it to multichannel PCM over HDMI.

http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp

And at this point in time nether HD-A1 or the HD-XA1 will actually decode the full 5.1 DTS-HD as DTS-HD Master Audio. I since the 2nd generation players will be out soon. I don't see any DTS-HD add ons being made available for the 1st gen players. Granted I would not mind if they did come out with an upgrade that allowed DTS-HD lossless decoding inside the HD-A1. But there also needs to be some actual DTS-HD titles released on HD-DVD as well, Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow does not count. At this point in time the only DTS-HD titles being released is for the Blu-ray platform. And as far as I can tell the only studio offering DTS-HD mainly is Fox. The only stand alone player that is slated to recieve internal decoding of DTS-HD internally is the Panasonic blu-ray player. Dolby True HD via HDMI is not lossless Dolby True HD its ends up as 5.1 PCM.

If this is not the case please provide links to HDMI, Dolby or DTS. So I can see where it says the reciever is actually getting the fulll lossless Dolby True HD signal without going through multichannel PCM conversion. And the key is reciever processor getting Dolby True HD untouched! The same goes for DTS-HD if there was any actual DTS-HD software titles out for HD-DVD. Just because the player is converting DTS-HD or Dolby True HD to multi-channel PCM, it does not make it Dolby or DTS lossless at your reciever!
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#14 of 31 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted November 06 2006 - 10:22 AM

Dave,

I know what DTS-HD "core" is (not lossless!), but what is TrueHD "core"?

According to the info Toshiba provides on the 2.0 firmware upgrade (HD-A1 and HD-XA1), TrueHD is available "in full resolution" on the HDMI output too:

Quote:
Q2. What are the added Dolby True HD features?

A2. Support for Dolby True HD is extended from two channels to 5.1, which will be available in full resolution on the HDMI and analog 5.1 outputs and down-mixed to a DTS bit stream on the SPDIF output.

Just not on the SPDIF. No mentioning of a "core".


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#15 of 31 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted November 06 2006 - 12:47 PM

Hey Cees,

I have been told by a number of people and have been under the direct impression that HDMI was absolutely necessary to get DTS-HD and Dolby True HD to a reciever for external decoding. I was not aware that Dolby True HD's full bandwith could be handled by HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. I was certain that Dolby True HD over HDMI would end up as PCM actually not DTHD. So if a reciever comes out around summer time with a processor that handels Dolby True HD. Then the HD-A1 with the 2.0 firmware update will send the Dolby True HD via HDMI 1.1 to a reciever and it will be able to handle it inside the reciever?

This is one of the reasons I am going to wait on a reciever until the end of next year. Because I want my reciever to do to the processing instead of the player. Will the player be able to send Dolby Digital Plus via HDMI for processing outside the player as well, using HDMI 1.1?

I just want to make sure I have the facts straight so I am not telling someone something that is not true!

Quote:
http://www.dolby.com....d3.html#truehd

Both Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD bitstreams are transportable over version 1.3 of HDMI™ and are compatible with HDMI v.1.1 as decoded PCM output signals for A/V receivers.


Quote:
http://www.dtsonline....w-receiver.php

You can enjoy DTS-HD Master audio by upgrading to a Blu-ray Disc or HD-DVD player with DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out and new AV Receiver with DTS-HD Master Audio decoding. Simply connect the player and receiver with an HDMI cable. The DTS-HD bit stream will pass through the player and HDMI cable to be decoded by the AV receiver. Both player and AV receiver will need to be equipped with new HDMI Version 1.3* outputs and inputs. This way you can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio at up to 7.1 channels at 96 k/24 bit sound that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master.


And on HDMI's web site it does not mention anything about Dolby True HD or DTS-HD in the information for HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. Only when you start reading into HDMI 1.3 does it mention the two lossless audio formats.
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#16 of 31 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted November 06 2006 - 09:21 PM

Quote:
So if a reciever comes out around summer time with a processor that handels Dolby True HD. Then the HD-A1 with the 2.0 firmware update will send the Dolby True HD via HDMI 1.1 to a reciever and it will be able to handle it inside the reciever?
That's my understanding too. I don't think (!) it sends decoded lossless 5.1 over HDMI in PCM.

So you will need a receiver decoding the TrueHD, but it will be possible over the current HDMI-interface level. Until then the 5 direct outputs will do, of course.
(I've read posts of people who seem to think that these "analog" outputs are 'less' in one way or another, but all digital signals need to be converted (decoded) to an analog signal eventually for us to hear or see. In this case you happen to use the decoder in the player - and a very good one!)


Cees

#17 of 31 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted November 07 2006 - 02:42 AM

I have nothing against using analog outputs at all. My problem with the current lineup of HD players. Including the HD-A1 that is in my home theater now is the use of 5.1 output and not 7.1 output. I started off wanting ether the Sony BDP-S1 or the Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1. But with no internal decoding of Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD or DTS-HD. And the use of 5.1 outputs instead of 7.1. I am most likely going to buy the Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-Ray Player instead. I saw it briefly at a place called Showcase here in Phoenix. The player was hooked up via HDMI to a Sony SXRD 60" HDTV and it looked really good. So unless I start hearing some nasty things about this player. I think it is time to etch this purchase in stone and get the money saved up for it.

Hopefully by March I will have the money and by that time Panasonic might have the upgrade for lossless decoding as well. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
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#18 of 31 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted November 10 2006 - 04:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
So you will need a receiver decoding the TrueHD, but it will be possible over the current HDMI-interface level. Until then the 5 direct outputs will do, of course.
Cees

Until you pop in that first 6.1 track. Posted Image What happens then? Do the players downmix to 5.1?
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#19 of 31 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted November 10 2006 - 06:08 AM

Posted Image

No, Toshiba will release its next firmware level.


Cees

#20 of 31 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted November 10 2006 - 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Posted Image

No, Toshiba will release its next firmware level.


Cees
Firmware won't put another 2 analog output on the back of the player though. You'd have to go HDMI wouldn't you? What's the player going to do when you play X-Men The Last Stand's 6.1 track through the analog 5.1 outputs? (waits for inevitable joke about the quality of the film)

Or did you mean it will need firmware to downmix 6.1 to 5.1 so it can play it out of the 5.1 outputs?
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