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1080p Front Projectors

CEDIA 2005-2007

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108 replies to this topic

#21 of 109 OFFLINE   Chris S

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Posted September 16 2006 - 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
On a side note Ron, RAF and I went to a booth where a manufacturer was showing their DLP 1080i 1 chip, 3 chip, 720 1 chip and 3 chip side by side at the same time showing the same source. Granted we were approx 15 feet away and sitting off to the side eye level with the three chip screens with the one chip screens up above. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't see a difference...I'm going to blame that on the fact to the setup, but it's the only time I've seen all four at once and if you had asked me to identify them I wouldn't have been able to point out which was which they were that close.

Thats something I've been wondering about with some of these smaller screens. Especially on something like the 42 inch screens that Hitachi and others are selling. How much difference can you really tell between 720p and 1080p? More to the point, how big does the screen really need to be before a perceptible difference is easily discernable??
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#22 of 109 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted September 16 2006 - 03:28 PM

i believe at 70"+ you can see a discernible difference between the two. it's fairly obvious on my front projector =).

#23 of 109 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

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Posted September 16 2006 - 05:53 PM

Quote:
i believe at 70"+ you can see a discernible difference between the two. it's fairly obvious on my front projector =).

It all depends on screen size and how far back you are sitting from that screen, as well as projector type (LCoS, DLP, LCD, etc). I notice it more on the plasma/LCDs--probably because it is easier to see the pixals on LCD and they are smaller on the 1080P panel.

#24 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 16 2006 - 06:42 PM

I appreciate the honesty Adam you and RAF have shown regarding these projectors. With all the excitement of seeing Sony's Pearl and the other 1080p units, it would be easy and kind of human nature to over due the quality of these and downgrade the lesser spec'd 720p units. And it probably is the setup in some way.

Still, that's encouraging to know that especially in the good 720p market and above, Front Projection really, really can produce hauntingly good images for the consumer at prices all over the map.

It's really a great time to be an enthusiast in this market. Just need more $$ to make it more fun. Posted Image

#25 of 109 OFFLINE   RAF

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Posted September 17 2006 - 02:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover
I appreciate the honesty Adam you and RAF have shown regarding these projectors. With all the excitement of seeing Sony's Pearl and the other 1080p units, it would be easy and kind of human nature to over due the quality of these and downgrade the lesser spec'd 720p units. And it probably is the setup in some way.

Still, that's encouraging to know that especially in the good 720p market and above, Front Projection really, really can produce hauntingly good images for the consumer at prices all over the map.

It's really a great time to be an enthusiast in this market. Just need more $$ to make it more fun. Posted Image

Yes, Tim, everything you and others here have said is true regarding the fact that 720p (essentially visually equivalent to 1080i) is still the current "HD" standard and produces some fine images. That's why it's exciting that 720p FP (DLP and other technologies) are now available at pricing that was unheard of less than one year ago. The HD FP HT experience (how's that for a bunch of two letter combinations!) is well within the means of most people who don't blink at the thought of spending over $1000 on a "normal" TV for the home.

I fullly understand that the real world difference between 1080p and 720p is the ability for the viewer to sit closer to the set (or bring the set closer to the seating area) with 1080p without the individual structures (pixels, scan lines, etc.) becoming visible. Add to this the fact that the closer one sits to a given size screen the more likely that the image will fill more of the peripheral viewing real estate which results in a more emmersive video experience and you can understand the real advantage to 1080p. Much has been said about 1080p and 720p images sometimes being hard to tell apart and that's absolutely true with many products. It's the geometry (seat to screen distance and the emmersive experience that results which is the true difference.)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that 720p images are the equal of 1080p images which obviously have higher resolution. I'm talking about perception by the viewer in a variety of home configurations. On a personal note, with both a 1080p display (my 58" HP MD5880n DLP RPM) and a 720p display (my Runco CL-710 single chip DLP FP) I sometimes forget to switch the output from my DVDO iScan VP30 from 720p to 1080p when switching from viewing my FP to viewing my RPM. There are a lot of other related questions here that I will be addressing once I get the chance to sit down for an extended session at the computer after the show ends - specifically: "Why don't you automate the switching process?" (HDMI issues) and, "Why don't you just get a 1080p FP?" (you know what's going to happen in that regard within a year). I've got lots to say on all of that later in the week because it involves things I found out talking to top people at CEDIA 2006.

My point is that I will sometimes be watching my 1080p for quite a few minutes and then press some button on the HP (like changing the source or checking the time) which brings up the HP information bar at the lower part of the set. Many is the time that I notice the "720p" legend (which means that the iScan is feeding 720p, not 1080p to the HP because I forgot to change the output resolution setting on the scaler). A simple touch of a button on the DVDO remote corrects this and the picture changes to full 1080p. Sure the 1080p looks better than 720p (in a true A/B test as described above). However, the fact that I didn't notice the 720p setting right away is proof, at least to me, that 720p isn't that far behind 1080p perceptually. I think that this is what others who saw the demos/shootouts of various resolution screens have been saying in another context. After all, we built our HT's, whatever the flavor, to watch movies and not to watch test patterns. Test patterns, of course, have their purpose and I use them, but can anyone name one that has won an Academy Award for Best Picture?

Quote:
And the Oscar goes to Pluge!!

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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#26 of 109 OFFLINE   Parker Clack

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Posted September 17 2006 - 03:17 AM

We are finally getting around to getting a great image to go with our great sound at an affordable price. I saw some really good looking 720p images from the Infocus camp that I would be more than happy to have in my HT. The image quality was fantastic.

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#27 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 17 2006 - 06:46 AM

Thanks RAF & Parker....this has been perhaps the most educational and enlightening thread in awhile for me...and it's a fairly short thread too. I know I speak for alot of people seriously looking into the FP market and you guys at CEDIA have been extremely helpul with on site insight. Posted Image

RAF, can't wait to read your detailed report on your CEDIA experience etc....

Again, most thanks Posted Image

#28 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 17 2006 - 04:18 PM

Just watched the video u CEDIA guys uploaded. Great stuff!

I am just salivating over the # of choices we have. I really shouldn't be surprised....anything great or revolutionary always gets more affordable...and in the case of top quality FPs this is now very very true.

Looks like Optoma has replaced their highly regarded HD72 with the HD73...that now uses the TI Dark Chip3. MSRP is $1800. That price was the sale price for the 72 model. Posted Image

Panasonic improving their highly regarded 900u LCD unit with the AX100. More contrast, sharper image, and other stuff I can't remember. Price point will be about the same as it was for the 900u which remains a steal. Then they revealed their 1080p unit. No $$ was mentioned but I got this giddy feeling all over when I saw it on the video. Posted Image

Have to admit the Sony Pearl 1080p projector is very sexy looking. Elegant and sexy. Gosh, I really am a HT geek. Posted Image Posted Image

Not everyone has the room or lifestyle for front projection. Having owned 2 in the past, it is a change for one's viewing habits. Having said that, nothing-I mean NOTHING gives me and my buds more of a cinema WOW factor than a front projector.

With my next Club Timobi Wan...which I hope to slowly re-build (gear first, then the decor!)...will be more electronically hip. One thing for sure, it will include at least a top notch 720p projector.

Thanks to all here for the great CEDIA information. Posted Image

#29 of 109 OFFLINE   Chris S

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Posted September 18 2006 - 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover
Thanks RAF & Parker....this has been perhaps the most educational and enlightening thread in awhile for me...and it's a fairly short thread too. I know I speak for alot of people seriously looking into the FP market and you guys at CEDIA have been extremely helpul with on site insight. Posted Image

RAF, can't wait to read your detailed report on your CEDIA experience etc....

Again, most thanks

I just want to second Tim's comments above. You guys have done an outstanding job passing along all the sights and sounds from CEDIA. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the work and late night postings.

So again, thank you!!
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#30 of 109 OFFLINE   RAF

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Posted September 18 2006 - 02:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris S
I just want to second Tim's comments above. You guys have done an outstanding job passing along all the sights and sounds from CEDIA. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the work and late night postings.

So again, thank you!!

Thanks to both of you (and to the many other members who have commented on this section). We will be posting a lot more once back home. I took the "sane" approach and decided to stay in town an extra day to avoid the crunch at the airport, etc. I plan to use some of this time to set up a series of threads here to introduce a bunch of topics (mostly hardware related) for your consideration. I'll make some introductory remarks and then throw it out for general discussion by the membership. Some will be obvious, but a couple might offer things you might not be familiar with.

Just be aware that the "high speed" connection here at the hotel is somewhat short of what I'm used to back home (I've become spoiled with my 20Megabit Verizon FIOS connection). This means that while I'll "seed" this section with various topics it will probably be a couple of days before I'm able to answer any questions raised. And I'm sure that other HTF staff members who were at CEDIA will be adding their own personal perspectives. There are a lot of places where you can get the general CEDIA information (and we link to several of those) but the personalized responses to our members are what we pride ourselves on.

Stay tuned....

Now that the show has ended I'd rather do it right than do it fast.
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#31 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 18 2006 - 04:41 AM

We will gladly wait and of course expect it to be really good stuff since you've given it more time. Posted Image

#32 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 19 2006 - 05:37 AM

This report is from ProjectorReviews.com:

This guy is very FP savvy and I like his reviews: Here's the actual link to his CEDIA report (well worth the read) and a few snippetts:

http://www.projector....mCEDIA2006.asp

In that link he has links for his 720p CEDIA report and a link for 1080p CEDIA stuff...

Quote:
Just one 720p home theater projector! Panasonic demonstrated their new PT-AX100U projector, in two rooms. The first demo room, a fully darkened theater, and the second in more of a family room environment with the ability to vary the brightness widely to see how the PT-AX100U performed. The projector looked great with movie content in the dark, and had the brightness to handle moderate ambient light, in the other room.


Quote:
Moving up one step in quality, Optoma's HD73 home theater projector is replacing the Optoma HD72, one of my all time favorite projectors. With an anticipated selling price of $1999 when it starts shipping in November, it is rated 30% brighter than the HD70 and offers a number of improvements in image quality. No doubt it will prove to be a worthy successor to what has been the best under $2000 DLP projector on the market.


Quote:
The HD7300, is replacing the HD7100. The HD7100 has been, by far the least expensive home theater projector to sport the Darkchip3 DLP processor. New for the HD7300, is an outboard processor featuring Gennum VXP processing. Gennum's processing has been key to the excellent reviews that Marantz's higher end VP-12S4 has received (including ours). The HD7300, however, is expected to sell for under $3000, while the Marantz has been selling for almost $15,000 and has just dropped its price to $10,999. The HD7300 looks to be a superb bargain, for those looking for the richest colors and blackest blacks in a 720p resolution projector.


Quote:
Over 40 Hot New 1080p Home Theater Projectors - By Manufacturer, With Comments:
Images of many of these projectors will be added over the next few days.

As mentioned in the Overview, 1080p projectors are here - in force, and many at surprsingly low prices (starting at $4499)!
Panasonic, Epson and Mitsubishi are going to slug it out for the king of the 1080p LCD based projectors. Just about every other 1080p projector is DLP, either single or three chip, with the exception of a few LCOS projectors from Sony, JVC and Dreamvision.


The 1080p summary is a longer one so I'll let you all read that. Posted Image Give it a look as there's plenty of top notch FP options for us whether it be 720p or 1080p.

Posted Image

#33 of 109 OFFLINE   Nikki M

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Posted September 19 2006 - 06:39 AM

OK-I'm new to the forum & home theater, and may be posting in the wrong area, so please point me in the right direction!
First, thanks to all of you for your knowledge and willingness to share info. And thanks in advance for any advice.

My husband & I are looking to create our 1st home theater. We were all set to buy the Sharp XV-Z12000 Mark II front projector this week because we have seen it locally, thought it was the best image out of what we have seen & the price has come down to $4900.

Then I started reading this forum, & read about the Sony Pearl. I am trying to find someplace locally that might have one to view. But I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on whether it would worth waiting for the Pearl to become available, or grab one of the Sharps before they are all gone?

Any input would be great!
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#34 of 109 OFFLINE   JediFonger

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Posted September 19 2006 - 07:04 AM

ya gotta wait for another 2-3 months before widespread availability.. or get in line by calling sony themselves =).

#35 of 109 OFFLINE   Nikki M

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Posted September 19 2006 - 07:16 AM

Thanks for the reply...but what I'm really trying to figure out is if it's worth waiting for.

There's a local company that has the Sony Ruby on display...anyone know if the Pearl will be comparable to the Ruby visually? (and I realize that much of it is subjective) I've read that the replacement bulb will cost a lot less for the Pearl, and various other specs...but what I'm really interested in is image quality. So if the Pearl looks similar to the Ruby, then we at least could look at it & compare it to the Sharp.

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#36 of 109 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

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Posted September 19 2006 - 07:39 AM

The Pearl and Ruby use different bulb types, so the color saturation won't be identical. Do you already have a screen? That may be a consideration too, as the Pearls on display were shown against a special screen that Stewart developed for them (Firehawk SST)

#37 of 109 OFFLINE   Nikki M

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Posted September 19 2006 - 07:50 AM

We don't have anything yet, just a big finished basement. The only advice I have gotten so far is to buy a Stewart screen, that they are the best. We are going 100".

And the basement does have easily accessible crawl space, so running cables won't be too horrible.

#38 of 109 OFFLINE   Adam Gregorich

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Posted September 19 2006 - 08:12 AM

Factor in the difference of a firehawk SST vs a Studiotec 130 (or whatever you were planning on using with the Sharp. That will make a difference to the bottom line. Depending on how far away from the screen you are you may not see a difference between 720 and 1080P.

#39 of 109 OFFLINE   Nikki M

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Posted September 19 2006 - 08:58 AM

Thanks for the input. I guess the best way to go is to at least look at the Ruby, then go look at the Sharp. Luckily the 2 stores are within a few miles of each other.

As for the price on the Firehawk SST, I haven't been able to find one.

For some reason, I have seen very few reviews/feedback on that Sharp projector. Maybe it's because the MRSP was $10k+??

#40 of 109 OFFLINE   Tim Glover

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Posted September 19 2006 - 10:12 AM

Hey Nikki.

Haven't seen that Sharp model but there is a VERY STRONG buzz on the Sony Pearl you are looking at too. Here's a link to a review that Robert F. provided last week. This reviewer did some short comparos to the Ruby too. Looks like the Pearl will be the best display and value in a long time.

Read this review...but I warn you, it's very detailed! Posted Image

http://cine4home.com....VW50Review.htm

I re-read the 1080p CEDIA report again from this site and other online sources. Even though the prices on these are landmark, they are still a bit too much for me right now. The prices on 720p units are extremely competative currently and are delivering top notch images.

Robert F, can't wait to read your 720p and 1080p assessment as you said you talked with others at CEDIA about this very thing. Can't wait. Posted Image


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