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First BD titles to use VC1...


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#1 of 16 DaViD Boulet

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Posted August 31 2006 - 02:08 AM

http://bluray.highde....or_Blu-ray/209

Quote:
Only a day after Warner announced an unprecedented single-day release of ten high-def titles, the studio has unveiled full specs and box art for the complete lineup, which may include the studio's first-ever VC-1-encoded Blu-ray discs.

As first reported yesterday, Warner Home Video is set to debut ten high-def disc titles simultaneously on September 26. Four will be exclusive to HD DVD, including 'The Dirty Dozen,' 'Grand Prix,' 'Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines' and 'The Adventures of Robin Hood', with the remaining six -- 'Tim Burton's Corpse Bride,' 'Swordfish,' 'Space Cowboys,' 'The Fugitive,' 'Lethal Weapon 2' and 'House of Wax' -- headed for Blu-ray.

Like all of Warner's previous HD DVD and Blu-ray releases, supplemental content on each title will be identical to those featured on their standard DVD counterparts.

'Terminator 3' will be the only one of the entire batch to also include exclusive HD bonus features, with an "In-Movie Experience" enhanced video commentary hosted by the film's director, Jonathan Mostow.

All ten titles will be presented in full 1080p video, with the HD DVD releases featuring Dolby Digital-Plus tracks (except 'The Adventures of Robin Hood,' which will be in Mono only, and sorry, no Dolby TrueHD at all this time around), while the Blu-ray discs will include standard Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks

As for disc types, Warner will again offer up HD-30 dual-layer discs for the HD DVD titles, and BD-25 single-layer discs for the Blu-ray releases.

However, despite the more limited storage space on the Blu-ray discs, we've received word from sources at Warner that these upcoming Blu-ray titles will be the format's first to utilize the VC-1 compression codec. So far, all Blu-ray disc releases (regardless of studio) have used the more space-hungry MPEG-2, so by switching to VC-1, Warner can conceivably pack a lot more content onto the same size disc. An especially attractive proposition, given the fact that production of more roomy BD-50 dual-layer platters is not expected to be market-ready until the end of 2006 at the earliest.

Taking a look at the feature-packed specs for these latest Warner Blu-ray titles, the signs certainly seem to indicate that they will indeed utilize the more space-saving VC-1 codec. However, we are still awaiting an official confirmation from Warner on the issue -- and we'll certainly post their final answer as soon as it comes in.

This comports with what industry sources were telling me a few months ago. I look forward to seeing what VC1 on BD can do... basically, aside from any "player" issues, the PQ from BD and HD DVD should be identical for most standard program titles using VC1 on HD DVD 30/BD25.

For those of you not up to speed on the history here... When Sony launched BD a few months back they hadn't gotten the authoring tools ready to enable studios to encode Blu-ray discs using VC1. That's why all the early BD discs have used (the inferior) MPEG2 video codec which is one reason why they typically don't look as good as HD DVD discs which pretty much are all using VC1 from the start (at least the discs by major studios. Rattle and Hum was AVC which is MPEG4).

The authoring tools for VC1 are now ready for BD and Warner Brothers will be releasing *** all *** of their BDs using VC1 from this point forward. Just a FYI... the authoring has been availble now for a while but the hold up with VC1 on BD the last month or so has actually been by the player manufacturers who wanted more time to test the software to ensure proper preformance with their soon-to-be-released hardware (so I've been told by industry insiders).

It will be interesting to see how this may affect the viability of Blu-ray while the BD camp works out the issues of 50 gig compatibility.

Let's keep this thread from turning into another generic format debate and try to keep posts germane to the topic of VC1 on Blu-ray.

-dave


p.s. don't let the DD+ on HD DVD versus the standard DD on Blu-ray fool you. Roger Dressler has indicated that with 5.1 tracks the 640 kbps DD on Blu-ray is basically providing the same qualtiy as 5.1 DD+ on HD DVD. The use of DD+ for 5.1 on HD DVD has to do with the way the data is packed on the disc in order to increase the bit-rate beyond the 448 kbps max-limit for DD on DVD-formatted discs. I know that's not the topic of this thread but that issue has confused many of us in the past who wondered why HD DVD was using DD+ compared to BD providing standard DD for the same titles on both formats, and according to Roger from Dolby the end result is more-or-less the same as the DD+ on HD DVD in 5.1 mode is basically providing DD quality at @ the 640 kbps rate (which cannot be encoded natively on HD DVD due to the 448 kbps limit on DD).
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#2 of 16 Michael TLV

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Posted August 31 2006 - 03:17 AM

Greetings

Regarding your PS ...

This is confusing to me and others. I visit the Dolby site and whenever they talk about DD+ ... it always talks about 3 mbps and above ... (to a 6 mbps ceiling) . I haven't read anything there that says ... Oh yes ... DD+ is also 640 kbps as well.

Also see some reference to a 1.7 mbps ceiling on DD+ on BD ...

Is there a link that clarifies this?

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#3 of 16 DaViD Boulet

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Posted August 31 2006 - 03:59 AM

skip down to post 62.

http://www.hometheat....=239324&page=3

Also, sorry to have brought that topic up in this thread. Let's try to keep discussion of the audio formats over in the previously started thread (my bad for posting confusing info over here to begin with!)
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#4 of 16 BrettB

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Posted August 31 2006 - 04:26 AM

Great news. I'm really looking forward to Blu-ray living up to it's potential.

#5 of 16 RonR

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Posted August 31 2006 - 04:34 AM

North America, Europe and Australia release on November 14th

Behind Enemy Lines: BD-J authored, DTS HD Lossless Master Audio and MPEG-4 compression. Includes several director commentaries and HD trailers for coming BD releases.

Fantastic Four: DTS HD Lossless Master Audio, HD Trailers, HDMV authored.

Kingdom of Heaven (Directors Cut): 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray disc to accommodate the 3 hour 42 minute movie DTS HD Master Lossless Audio, HDMV authored.

Kiss of the Dragon: Director commentaries, HDMV authored, HD Trailers.

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: BD-J authored, MPEG-4 AVC compression, special features including search index by actor/character/location and more, a first-person shooter game, up to 99 bookmarks, pop up animated trivia game and HD trailers.

The Omen (666): DTS HD Lossless Master Audio, director commentaries plus BD-exclusive pop-up trivia track The Devils Footnotes exploring the history of 666.

Speed: BD-J authored, DTS HD Lossless Master Audio, 56 category search index, Speed: Take Down Java game with six play modes and HD trailers.

The Transporter: DTS HD Lossless Master Audio, HDMV authored, director commentaries, HD trailers.

http://www.hdbeat.co....-j-mpeg-4-avc/

#6 of 16 DaViD Boulet

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Posted August 31 2006 - 05:09 AM

Posted Image

RonR,

wow. Lossless audio using DTS HD. Very, Very impressive. Maybe we'll finally see some BD discs that are actually worth buying!

These should look/sound as good as HD DVD given suitable playback hardware. I can't wait to see how AVC/MPEG4 looks next to VC1. Fox really seems to like using it and it seems Disney may be moving towards AVC as well.

Also very impressive Fox is using java even while the Sammy isn't ready to make use of it. IMO, it's always better to optimize the software for the future even if the hardware needs to catch up... because those discs sit on your shelf for many more years that the particular model of player that you have right now.

-dave
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#7 of 16 Ed St. Clair

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Posted August 31 2006 - 07:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
HD DVD was using DD+ compared to BD providing standard DD for the same titles on both formats, according to Roger from Dolby the end result is more-or-less the same as the DD+ on HD DVD in 5.1 mode is basically providing DD quality at @ the 640 kbps rate (which cannot be encoded natively on HD DVD due to the 448 kbps limit on DD).
YIKES!!!
Not exactly a rousing vote of superiority for DD+ over DD, by Dolby!
In fact, he's saying there is no benefit to DD+.
So, why should anyone care about DD+?
Dolby doesn't!
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#8 of 16 DaViD Boulet

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Posted August 31 2006 - 08:03 AM

I was baffled by that as well. It's possible that he's just not being comprehensive about all that DD+ can do in 5.1 mode on HD DVD... but at the very least it seems that it's current use basically providing standard DD at the 640 level. Which sounds VERY GOOD by the way!

Posted Image
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#9 of 16 Rob_Walton

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Posted August 31 2006 - 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Also very impressive Fox is using java even while the Sammy isn't ready to make use of it. IMO, it's always better to optimize the software for the future even if the hardware needs to catch up... because those discs sit on your shelf for many more years that the particular model of player that you have right now.
The Fox titles are planed to ship around the same time as the PS3, and should take advantage of whatever BD-J functionality that machine has onboard. It will be interesting to see if WB respond to Fox and start putting their IME vidoe commentaries on BD releases as well as HD DVD versions.

#10 of 16 Ed St. Clair

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Posted August 31 2006 - 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I was baffled by that as well. It's possible that he's just not being comprehensive about all that DD+ can do in 5.1 mode on HD DVD... but at the very least it seems that it's current use basically providing standard DD at the 640 level. Which sounds VERY GOOD by the way!
Posted Image
Well, yeah, 640 is what, twice what WB used to give us on SD DVD?!?!
Maybe the + is for channels? ;-)
DD+ does 7.1 discrete.

Although, I was all hyped up about HiRez, for the sound as well as the video.

Can 640 match or better, the very best DTS LD soundtracks?
Is it as good or far better than D-VHS soundtracks?
(Anyone?)
Thanks.
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#11 of 16 Xavier Roy-Bois

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Posted August 31 2006 - 01:33 PM

I would like to ask to Roger why Dolby " web site is annoncing a minimum of 3 mbps for DD +... and a max of 6 mbps.

Sorry , but i don ' buy it !

People working at dolby saying that DD + is not better than a 640kbps DD track ! Come on !

Roger can you explain this to us please ?

That really doesn"t make any sense
Can"t wait to hear DD+ and DTHD at their full resolution !

Bring us HDMI 1.3 equipped receivers fast !!!

#12 of 16 DaViD Boulet

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Posted August 31 2006 - 04:12 PM

Xavior,

feel free to post questions to Roger in the thread I linked to earlier where he was discussing those matters. He seemed to be monitoring it.

Quote:
Can 640 match or better, the very best DTS LD soundtracks?
Is it as good or far better than D-VHS soundtracks?
(Anyone?)
Thanks.

DD at 640 is a higher data-rate than the max on D-VHS which was capped in the 500's. Some have stated that the subjective quality of 640 DD is better than 1500 DTS... but opinions go both ways.
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#13 of 16 Ed St. Clair

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Posted September 01 2006 - 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
DD at 640 is a higher data-rate than the max on D-VHS which was capped in the 500's. Some have stated that the subjective quality of 640 DD is better than 1500 DTS... but opinions go both ways.
As long as its close! ;-)
Thanks, DaViD.

Always respected D-VHS for setting the bar for pre-recorded home HD. As long as HD disc, continues to match or surpass it, I'm a happy camper!
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#14 of 16 Michael Osadciw

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Posted September 04 2006 - 07:03 AM

The lack of clarification about DD+ has boggled my mind as well. Based on my understanding, it seems like the BD technology can use full bitrate DD without calling it "DD+" wheras HD-DVD, based on the technology's design needs something different to bring that data rate to 640kbps...so in this case the DD+ technology is used to accomplish it.

Regarding the up to 3Mbps...I guess the + technology is scalable...but we wouldn't know what data rate they are using on each title, would we?

David, I think you hijacked your own thread! ha hah!

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#15 of 16 Jon_W

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Posted September 04 2006 - 04:44 PM

Early indications pointed to the first batch of Universal HD titles using 1.5 mbps DD+ (according to Stacy Spears at AVS). I don't see how Dolby Digital at 640kbps can sound identical to DD+ at 1.5mbps. Implementation at the studio appears to be the key here. A discussion and comparison of Warner titles only might not be the best indicator. I for have really enjoyed all the DD+ soundtracks I have heard thus far. And I will judge DD on Bluray when I jump into that.
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#16 of 16 Dan Hitchman

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Posted September 05 2006 - 10:35 AM

I really don't give a flying fig about DD+. Bring on the high resolution lossless instead!!

Fox seems to be up to the task.

Dan


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