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HDMI vs. DVI on pre-pros & receivers - Outlaw Audio was right a couple of years ago

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#41 of 46 OFFLINE   Theogenes



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Posted September 02 2006 - 07:52 PM

Sorry, probably should have made my meaning clearer. I wasn't really concerned about damaging my equipment as much as I was about having my HDMI give me so many aggravations that I just decide it isn't worth it. If it is really as troublesome as people are saying, I'm almost tempted to just find another solution, as I don't have a particularly good temper when it comes to malfunctioning electronics. So, whaddya think? Is HDMI worth the hassle? Is it, in fact, a hassle at all? I would really like to set my system up with the best connections I can, but if it's going to make me want to kill myself and the people around me, I'll probably just skip it for everyone's sake.
Toshiba 52HM95; Panasonic SA-XR57; Oppo 971H; Philips DVP642; Blue Jeans Cables; Onix X-LS -- for now.

DVDO VP30; Toshiba HD-A1; MX3000 -- if there really is a Santa...

#42 of 46 OFFLINE   Theogenes



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Posted September 02 2006 - 07:53 PM

Oh, and I meant to thank you for the link. The stuff there does seem considerably less expensive than elsewhere. Thanks!!
Toshiba 52HM95; Panasonic SA-XR57; Oppo 971H; Philips DVP642; Blue Jeans Cables; Onix X-LS -- for now.

DVDO VP30; Toshiba HD-A1; MX3000 -- if there really is a Santa...

#43 of 46 OFFLINE   Arthur S

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Posted September 03 2006 - 04:10 AM

According to the person who started this thread, even Outlaw is likely going to add HDMI to its next generation of products. With all the major manufacturers only adding more and more HDMI inputs/outputs to their electronics, I think you don't have to be so nervous.

Like I said before. I used an HDMI cable for 10 days and there were no problems at all. It is really not that big a deal. This would be a good time to test the waters Posted Image

#44 of 46 OFFLINE   Alex/d


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Posted September 05 2006 - 08:27 PM

All of this talk about HDMI has reminded me of the issue with personal computer standards back in the 1980's. (I'll explain a bit for those out there without prior knowledge.)

Back in the 1980's, personal computers started making an impact in the world, and obviously more were sold as time went on, and prices dropped...ect... but to get back on track here, the problem in particular with IBM and IBM Compatible PC's is that the software was universal and the hardware that the computers used could have vastly varied from some other manufacturers brand... even though it would operate the same software. The problem became that when it was time to upgrade, or migrate to a new system, is the fact that most of your parts were proprietary and non standardized. It basically made a lot of people to buy not only new parts to upgrade or replace, but also other peripherals had to be re purchased due to the vast hardware change.

Today, however, most of the computer architecture specifications have been stabilized... with the exception of AMD and Intel wanting different parts such as processors, motherboards, and memory; however, power supplies, drives, expansion cards, cases, and interconnects have been very stable since ATX came out.

ATX replaced AT in so many drastic ways, such as case design had to be within certain specs, power supply connectors had to be standardized, ect, that it became simpler for people to upgrade and migrate to newer machines. (now they have a new BTX spec... so atx is going bye bye.)

What does this do with HDMI? (Sorry if I seem a bit A.D.D.)
With all the changes and dragging of the feet...it's certainly not working in customer favor because I belive that the industry want's people to buy new crap every year as opposed to hanging on to thier old audio equipment.

With the shift I see concerning other technologies (such as the Onkyo TX-NR5000, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and HDMI), our old technology once controlled by op-amps and resistors is now nearing that of a modern computer in terms of power and abilities. What HDMI needs, along with any other new interconnects sure to come out, is a standard. You can pretty much guess with whats going on with upcoming standards: we are going to be going more twords computers as opposed to simple devices with simple interconnects, proof in point: the Onkyo NR500, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

The Onkyo is more like a computer in the fact that it is very expandible and upgradable down the road. The Blu and HD players are more like a computer inside.... just look at the front page and click on the Samsung Blu-Ray Review... click the pic with the top off, and right beside the transport resembles a board closer to a computer than a DVD player or CD player.

Here is the entanglement among common consumer electronics and modern PC's: PC's are meant to be upgraded, and most consumer electronics are still "once built, buy another if you want better." With HDMI in particular, this throws a bigger spoke in the wheels because the A/V industry want's to evolve the standard at a rate computers are used to seeing, as opposed to normal consumer electronics. The problem should be clear, that HDMI, an evolving standard, is TRYING to be crammed into electronics that a majority of consumers want to hold on to for years, as opposed to replace a 100-1000 dollar item every year.

HDMI needs to be a standard and specification. Even though they say it is.. it's not a very good one. The standard for HDMI, I belive is ok. They have the plug figured out! Now they need to make an industry spec on how HDMI and other complex signal transfer connections can be upgraded VIA software. RS-232 isn't going to cut it. Newer computers are phasing out serial ports in favor of USB.... but USB is easier.

So... they need to spend about 14 million dollars or so to figure out how to put a USB port on the back of a reciever or TV in order to upgrade the frimware of HDMI or any other device that has complex signal transfers.

The main reason I say USB is:
Serial is being phased out slowly (as I said above)
USB Thumbdrives (removable, handheld storage) is very cheap now. How many megabytes would it take to upgrade a frimware? Certainly not more than 128mb... I'd hope not.

So, with that in mind.... it would be easy for any consumer with a newer computer to get a thumb drive (and if you don't have a newer computer, go to a local library) and download the frimware straight to the thumbdrive, plug it into the device, get the device into upgrade mode, and it's fixed.

Now... wouldn't that seem like a novel idea? Not too difficult idea to implement, seeing as devices are getting closer to computer like power, and computers all ready have USB... see where I'm coming from? Posted Image

I'm just saying... it would solve quite a few problems (as well as create others I'm sure) and would keep customers happy and on top of technology (more or less).

I commend you if you've read everything. You get bananas. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Onkyo TX-DS787/ RCA Dimensia MPA 200 Preamp/ Pioneer Elite PD 65/ Sony SCD-CE595 SA-CD layer/ Technics M224 Tape Deck/ Sony DVP-NS501P DVD Player/ Superscope TD-48 Quadraphonic 8-Track Player/ Technics SL-5 Turntable/ Pioneer TX-6500II Tuner/ PSB Century 600i / Paradigm PS-1000/ Pioneer CS-C280K...

#45 of 46 OFFLINE   Seth=L



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Posted September 06 2006 - 02:55 AM

Well some processors have the ability to be upgraded via ethernet. The question is this, is there a firmware upgrade to make a 1.1 or 1.2 processor into 1.3, or is it even possible. If not, then we have to buy new stuff.

#46 of 46 OFFLINE   Mary M S

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Posted September 08 2006 - 02:43 AM

With much respect for RAF I appreciated reading his posts during the good old / bad old Outlaw at the OK corral days.

Wow, some of the same issues revolved around the Outlaw 950, which I am still happy to be sitting on. Personally I feel Outlaw has displayed pretty good judgement on their decisions regarding feature sets of products.
I was a raw newcomer then, attempting to soak in (tried to comprehend) and balance as many opinions as there are men, regarding micro processing displays, Bass Management, IEEE 1394, DVI, HDMI, HDCP and more.

I factored so many things (too tired to recap) went with Outlaw, 950 and their amps, and have never regretted nor felt the need to upgrade to date

While surfing tech sites for technicians I already see mention of two possible successors to HDMI, I’m waiting to see if the 1.3 (or ?) settles the many issues with HDMI and finally (if ever) brings it to a state of stability, or until such time as something breaks which disables a unit and it is a force to purchase from currently available specs.

I made the same call as RAF regarding DVI (lack of on the 950) , while factoring my own personal priorities and being HAMMERED by men on subjects such as the non-inclusion of Firewire, on any cutting edge prepro sold at that time. Back then Firewire was touted in the category of a must have feature for future proofing.
Some of my choices ‘felt’ like I was swimming upstream while many were traveling down, and I made these decisions nervously. For myself, I am currently quite comfortable with the agonizing tradeoffs I made then.

These were right for me, and (like I had a crystal ball Posted Image ) what I perceived the market would evolve to and what effects this would have on my use of HT have been dead on to what I determined would be probable future advances and placed me in a comfortable position for several years enjoyment of HT.

Extremely happy still with Outlaw even though I’ve had ownership for LOP. I was an early adopter, registered on their waiting list, and killed time demoing other products till I could hear the just released 950.

I see RAF’s points clearly since I factored the ‘DVI issue’ among other concerns on the granddaddy of the 970 and it worked out very well for me.
If I wished to purchase either of the HD players the Outlaws 950 separation of video & audio gives me my 5.1 outputs/inputs. A viable workaround while this mess sorts out. A portion of my study on whether I should purchase Outlaw (sans a DVI connection) was weighted by the fact that I knew my brand ‘new’ digital display was doing DAC. I preferred direct-to-display setups for video to reduce the ‘chain’ whenever possible did not use the component video passthrough and found using my LCD readout Vs OSD tradeoff a small price to pay.

Wrong or Right I’ve been content since purchase. Never wowed by units which threw in the kitchen sink, preferring to think that if less of these ‘extras’ less-critical to the evolving market are onboard the electronics can (in theory) focus quality control on primary functions. The issue of RE would be an additional non-factor. If needing that extra processing I would purchase a standalone. I charted my RR while messing with my sub; it wasn’t anywhere near perfect, but very decent uncorrected. So I live without that additional ‘tweak’ step and the need for finding space for that component in the HT.

Currently without being ‘up’ on all issues, my old 950 still has 'legs' for me. I am sitting on this current setup till devices, which can accept 1080p natively, are readily available and already reducing in price. Plan on entering ‘research’ mode regarding side issues and current crop of specs at that time.
You've been dreaming. Dreaming of Sea Captain who haunted this house.