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#1 of 26 Nikko

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Posted August 06 2006 - 02:06 PM

Okay, my church is running upgrades on our sound system right now, new mixer, new cd burning tower, new chorus mic, and new subs. We right now are running two yamaha powered mains (R+L) and are looking for two subs to handle the low end of the speakers. Our budget is about $1200 for two that will be placed directly next to each of the mains. Right now we are looking at Carvin brand. Things to remember: need two, $1200, for live music, room is about 35'Wx55'L with the speakers placed about 7' from the front wall.

#2 of 26 SteveCallas

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Posted August 06 2006 - 03:19 PM

I'd go with two of these:

http://www.pricegrab....rwin vega je36

106db sensitivity and 8ohm - should be a very easy load to drive and should provide tons of output. I'm a fan of Carvin amps, and I assume you were considering their SW1802B? - the Cerwin Vega will provide lots more output with much less power. Good luck.

PS - Based on a hunch from your name, is this for a Greek Orthodox church?

#3 of 26 Nikko

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Posted August 06 2006 - 07:22 PM

na, it's non-denominational christian. I just have a weird name. I live in california though. And I was really looking for powered subs at this point. It just makes it easier to run with our system

#4 of 26 SethH

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Posted August 06 2006 - 09:40 PM

I would stick to Carvin, Yamaha or Peavey. If you can find used EAW in your price range then snatch those up. I personally think any of these will provide better sound quality than the Cerwin Vegas.

#5 of 26 Jacob C

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Posted August 08 2006 - 12:27 PM

I've been a fan of JBL for live sound for a long time. I would at least check them out. That said, there are many good options out there.
Jacob
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#6 of 26 SteveCallas

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Posted August 10 2006 - 05:18 AM

Quote:
I personally think any of these will provide better sound quality than the Cerwin Vegas.
I understand and am aware of the perception of Cerwin Vega speakers being crap, and under most circumstances I would agree. But we're not talking about a sub for a home environment and music listening, we're talking about sound reinforcement in a large open space. The CV sub I linked to is a bass horn, meaning it will by its nature play louder (and should do so with less distortion) than the other traditional options. In large spaces, sensitivity becomes a limiting factor really quick.

But since it needs to be powered, it won't meet the criteria.

#7 of 26 Th8ter

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Posted August 10 2006 - 07:19 AM

I would highly recommend these:

https://svsound.com/...box-pb12nsd.cfm

#8 of 26 SethH

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Posted August 10 2006 - 09:48 AM

While SVS makes great subs, I don't think many people would recommend them for live sound applications.

#9 of 26 SethH

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Posted August 10 2006 - 10:38 AM

Regarding powered subs . . . you might consider Mackie's powered subs. I haven't specifically heard their subs, but their powered speakers are very competitive at their price point.

#10 of 26 Mark Seaton

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Posted August 10 2006 - 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
I understand and am aware of the perception of Cerwin Vega speakers being crap, and under most circumstances I would agree. But we're not talking about a sub for a home environment and music listening, we're talking about sound reinforcement in a large open space. The CV sub I linked to is a bass horn, meaning it will by its nature play louder (and should do so with less distortion) than the other traditional options. In large spaces, sensitivity becomes a limiting factor really quick.

But since it needs to be powered, it won't meet the criteria.

Creative specmanship runs rampant in the Pro Audio world. If you're trying to run a DJ in a club on the cheap, the CV's will thump pretty damn loud, but sound pretty weak compared to any substantial sub as they are very lacking in the real bass regions.

Nikko,

You might want to as for some suggestions in the LAB Lounge section of ProSoundWeb. Personally I would probably go with passive subs and a cheap amp for the budget involved, but there are some ok powered subs in the price range you are looking at. FYI, while I don't know the layout of your room, if you can possibly get the subs together in the center that will give you the best results.

Some brands worth checking out would be Carvin, JBL, Mackie and Yorkville (and maybe even Peavey). Of course there are plenty of others who make decent products, but I suspect those are your most likely candidates. Fortunately you have a rather small room to deal with in terms of live sound reinforcement.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.

#11 of 26 Nikko

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Posted August 10 2006 - 04:14 PM

thanks for the help

#12 of 26 SteveCallas

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Posted August 11 2006 - 01:13 AM

Quote:
If you're trying to run a DJ in a club on the cheap, the CV's will thump pretty damn loud, but sound pretty weak compared to any substantial sub as they are very lacking in the real bass regions.
Are you saying they won't meet their 35hz spec? I don't know too many pro options that will go significantly lower than 30hz.

#13 of 26 Mark Seaton

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Posted August 11 2006 - 03:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Are you saying they won't meet their 35hz spec? I don't know too many pro options that will go significantly lower than 30hz.

That depends on how you define "meeting spec." Posted Image

I'm sure if you expand the window enough, it fits, or if you apply enough EQ. Even the biggest companies get more creative than the home audio retailers (not the more current trend of more straight forward measurements and specs). The worst part really comes from the sensitivity and output specs. Does it count if the "rated" sensitivity only occurs above 100Hz? What if that max output only applies over 50-80Hz... for a subwoofer?!? There have been some measurement sessions done by members of the PSW Live Audio Board, but not a lot of them.

I've attended at least 3 different pro sub measurement & listening shootout. You'd be surprised how many subs that are spec'd to go quite low start rolling off pretty quickly in the 55Hz range. The "better" ones turn that corner around 45Hz, and there are no where near enough subs that get down into the 30s. That said, for a lot of live work, strong and clean response to 40Hz can work well, with 30-35Hz *real* response is a significant step beyond that, where filling a large space can get a bit expensive.
Mark Seaton
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#14 of 26 SteveCallas

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Posted August 11 2006 - 03:57 AM

I can understand more so in the home market, but why no standardization in the pro sound field? Having no experience with this particular unit or having seen any measurements, I'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt - I'd imagine their frequency range goes from the low end -6db to the top end -6db points.

#15 of 26 15hertz

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Posted August 11 2006 - 05:03 AM

go with a pair of jbl jrx 18inch sub clean and tight

#16 of 26 chuckg

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Posted August 11 2006 - 05:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton
You'd be surprised how many subs that are spec'd to go quite low start rolling off pretty quickly in the 55Hz range. The "better" ones turn that corner around 45Hz, and there are no where near enough subs that get down into the 30s. That said, for a lot of live work, strong and clean response to 40Hz can work well, with 30-35Hz *real* response is a significant step beyond that, where filling a large space can get a bit expensive.


Don't forget that there's basically no sound at all below 42 Hertz in live repro...that bottom note on your bass guitar is pretty much the bottom.
--ignore the man behind the curtain

#17 of 26 Mark Seaton

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Posted August 11 2006 - 07:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckg
Don't forget that there's basically no sound at all below 42 Hertz in live repro...that bottom note on your bass guitar is pretty much the bottom.

Having set up and used plenty of sound reinforcement systems with very strong response into the 26-35Hz I would respectfully dissagree. Just about every transient in live music has lower frequency content... except it is often high passed since the systems of the past didn't have a chance at reproducing it. I am still very confident that the next evolution for live-sound bass reproduction will be in providing strong output to 25Hz. Of course in many applications that's going to require some creative implementations and even some directivity control to not incurr other problems. All problems with clear solutions though.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.

#18 of 26 Mark Seaton

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Posted August 11 2006 - 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
I can understand more so in the home market, but why no standardization in the pro sound field? Having no experience with this particular unit or having seen any measurements, I'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt - I'd imagine their frequency range goes from the low end -6db to the top end -6db points.

As you stated, you obviously haven't seen the real world translation of the laughable max output specs (often simply calculated) and the lack of any correlation to sensitivity and frequency response. Power hanlding for most subs are purely thermal numbers, where heavy compression or bottoming often kick in at fractions of the rated power, and distortion levels exceeding 30% are not uncommon. I'm not saying it's rocket science to build a good performing subwoofer, but you might get that impression looking at a lot of what is in common use in the market.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.

#19 of 26 LanceJ

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Posted August 11 2006 - 09:17 AM

Quote:
All problems with clear solutions though.
I'll bet they have some large price tag$ attached to them too. Posted Image

#20 of 26 SethH

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Posted August 11 2006 - 09:34 AM

Don't forget that there's basically no sound at all below 42 Hertz in live repro...that bottom note on your bass guitar is pretty much the bottom.


That's the "e" on a 4 string bass. 5-string basses are very, very common and have a low "b" which is about 30Hz.


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