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Aliens and Ghosts..


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#41 of 251 OFFLINE   Radioman970

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:11 AM

NOTE: I don't want to start an argument or angry debate. Just stating my thoughts on this very interesting subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
Let me clearify my use of science in this thread, my main point is that too often people take the findings of science as gospal and they refuse to accept anything else, these are usually the hard skeptics that refuse to accept things that exist outside of scientific explanation, like ghosts and visitations by other life forms.
There are many levels to people who just except stuff without thinking it through fully for themselves. My thoughts are that people do that every Sunday morning. But that's just me.

It's not enough "just to believe" in something. You have to have a concrete reason why it's real. Stuff like ghosts, angels, aliens, other dimensions. Sure, each one is highly possible. I was watching the extras on the Star Trek IV DVD and it had a nice little piece with scientists talking about time travel. TIME TRAVEL! Posted Image I read something during my show prep today about invisability! INVISA-FREAKIN-BILITY!! Posted Image So...anything is possible but that don't make it true unless there is something to back it up. That's where science comes in. My thought is to never just "except" something, even science or something outside that way of thinking. Question it all!!! And I mean EVERYTHING ABOUT IT! Consider other possibilities and suddenly you'll start seeing how easily the most amazing thing can be explained with something more practical. The simpliest explanation is usually the right one.

Quote:
As for proof, I need provide no proof, there exists both on the internet and at your local library and book store countless books and articles about hauntings, possesions and even exorcisms.
Question it all. The Exorcist is in my Top 5 favorite Horrors films of all time. Truly an amazing piece of film making that gets under my skin each and every time. Although my long time thinking is that exorcists have nothing to do with a person's body being occupied with another consiousness or demon or something like that. That's fantasy! Think it through.

Quote:
In many of these cases there were multitudes of people that were on hand and witnessed and heard the same things, and in many haunting situations there are endless strangers who know nothing of a given locations history, describe in great detail what others have seen and felt before them.
Doesn't mean there isn't a logical explanation for each and every "siting". Why must it be ghosts? Why can't it be house settling or rats in the walls? Usually it's old places anyway. I remember seeing a ghost study taking place in an old military vessel that collided with another. The haunting was the sound of the collision and men yelling. It was very cool! I still believe it was just the sounds of the previously damaged ship mixed with the weird things water can do to sound. Posted Image

Quote:
There is simply too much information out there to dismiss these phenominon. There is a show on the Sci-fi channel (don't let that mislead your judgement) called Ghost Hunters, it's an organization of men who call themselves TAPS, which stands for The Atlantic Paranormal Society and they have made a career of investigating hauntings and they're main goal is to debunk hauntings, not prove them, and 85% of the time they do end up debunking a claim.
I wish I had SCI-Fi Channel to watch that show. Looks great!

Anyway, question the other 15%. When you start believing everything you see on TV or newpapers you're being directed to believe a certain way without considering all the possibilities.

Quote:
But than there's the other 15% and in those cases they find some pretty weird things, things that cannot be explained and some of it is rather startling. These are not men who are out to make a buck or to be famous, they are skeptics that have seen and heard many things that they can't explain and they have captured a lot of it on video and audio.
That doesn't make this 15% anything other than something unexplained. Doesn't mean it's ghosts, doesn't mean it's not. Just means they were unable to figure it out. In the end it could still be college kids who set up an elaborate prank because they knew that TV show would be there.

Quote:
If one chooses to believe that they fake evidence then that's their right, but if you watch the show and read about these guys, I tend to believe them because they have absolutly no axe to grind. My choice of the words "kooks" and "liars" was simply to mirror how much of society views those who say they've had a paranormal experience, that's all.
Well, they'd sure like that show to continue to put supper on the table... Posted Image

But who knows? Maybe a little perseverance/determination and they'll provide the proof to shock the world. But as of now you could probably come up with a long list of possibly explanations for that 15%. Give it try.
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#42 of 251 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:15 AM

Quote:
Let me clearify my use of science in this thread, my main point is that too often people take the findings of science as gospal and they refuse to accept anything else, these are usually the hard skeptics that refuse to accept things that exist outside of scientific explanation, like ghosts and visitations by other life forms.

I point you to the "Teleportation" thread to show you how much you are incorrect. Suffice it to say that you know nothing about science and even less about scientists if you think they accept "the findings of science as gospel". If that were so, no scientific progress would be possible because the scientific method would not exist. Science is observation, theory, experimentation, verification. If someone observes a ghost, a scientist will make up a plausible theory, then one will conduct experiments in order to verify the theory. Easy peazy. If you think no scientists have theorized about ghosts, ET's, etc, you are sorely mistaken. Unfortunately, scientists have to deal with a little thing called "reality". Until the "proof" is actually "provable", I'm afraid the existence of "ghosts" is shit out of luck (and that ain't the scientist's fault, it's the damn ghost's for not sticking his head out more often).

#43 of 251 OFFLINE   ChrisMatson

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianW
To know the true answers, you must search within your own heart. Therein lies everything that can be accurately known about the Universe, like chemistry, knowledge of flight, the laws of motion, or even how to build a global, wireless infrastructure that propagates annoying ring tones.
...
If only they could accept that Truth comes from within, and that deciding what to believe is as easy as consulting one's own internal life force, then they would be much better off.

Posted Image

Chemistry, physics, and electrical engineering come from the heart and not through scientific discovery?

You can listen to your "life force," I'll stick to the evidence.

For the record, I do believe that life exists outside of Earth but I don't believe in ghosts.

#44 of 251 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisMatson
Posted Image

Chemistry, physics, and electrical engineering come from the heart and not through scientific discovery?

You can listen to your "life force," I'll stick to the evidence.

For the record, I do believe that life exists outside of Earth but I don't believe in ghosts.

I assure you, BrianW is speaking (writing) in highly sarcastic tones. He would never say it, but my experience with his excellent writings on science present in other threads assures me this post is his subtle way of telling someone to go shit in their hat. Posted Image

#45 of 251 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:24 AM

I've been a believer in the paranormal all my life and am not given to influence by what I see on television and in the tabloids.

I do question, i'm not naive, I read and I listen, those that say that "it's the house settling or rats in the walls" aren't, IMO, considering the possibility that it is what it is, an unexplained occurance due to a presance. I also happen to think that ghosts and haunting phenominon are no big deal, they are harmless most of the time and they are simply part of the unknown universe.

So there's a ghost in the house, big deal, it's not hurting me or anyone else.
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#46 of 251 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
I assure you, BrianW is speaking (writing) in highly sarcastic tones. He would never say it, but my experience with his excellent writings on science present in other threads assures me this post is his subtle way of telling someone to go shit in their hat. Posted Image

If that's the case, than this thread is history, have a fun debate gentlemen. Posted Image
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#47 of 251 OFFLINE   Holadem

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
There's nothing that I could link you to that would change your opinion, so I won't. But your in the exact same position as I am, Kevin, you obviously don't believe based on what you've read or gathered over your years just as I have to the contrary, where's YOUR hard proof that ghosts don't exist?
There was a blurb about extraordinary claims, evidence and burden of proof earlier. Did you get it?

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#48 of 251 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
If that's the case, than this thread is history, have a fun debate gentlemen. Posted Image

Things do tend to go downhill when someone takes the time to post gross insults dismissing an entire field of study that took 1000 years to get to this point, not to mention a great many careers of the persons on this forum, as mere hogwash. Then again, maybe no one should be insulted when 16+years of schooling and who knows how many years of experience can be flushed down the toilet in the 4 seconds it takes to write:
Quote:
"We think we [know about the universe] with all our science and theories but ultimately, we don't know a thing avout what may be out there".
(Note: it probably would have taken longer if there had been a spellcheck, but somehow the misspelling seems to fit).Posted Image

#49 of 251 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:44 AM

Quote:
where's YOUR hard proof that ghosts don't exist?
It’s not anyone’s responsibility to prove a negative, John. It’s up to the person making the extraordinary claim to provide positive proof of it. The SciFi TV show isn’t it, either. Why would people like you (ie those interested in the paranormal) bother to watch a show that says “sorry guys, there’s nothing here”? They know who they’re playing to.

#50 of 251 OFFLINE   Radioman970

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I've been a believer in the paranormal all my life and am not given to influence by what I see on television and in the tabloids.
Well, I only said that because you sure are giving that Sci-Fi Channel show a big giant hi-five. Posted Image

On a personal note: my mother thinks she can tell the future. Absolutely true! It was so bad as a child she thought she was causing the things to happen.

Quote:
I do question, i'm not naive, I read and I listen, those that say that "it's the house settling or rats in the walls" aren't, IMO, considering the possibility that it is what it is, an unexplained occurance due to a presance. I also happen to think that ghosts and haunting phenominon are no big deal, they are harmless most of the time and they are simply part of the unknown universe.
That's cool, man. I was just commenting on what I was reading in your posts. I've done a lot of living through age 40 and it taught me to take the trouble to question things. I never once said that everything that makes a sound in an old house is the walls/rats. I'm simply saying that that is probably the answer 99% of the time. And the other 1% is something else probably even more easy to explain (a practical joke). Sure, the "other thing" is certainly possible. But what are the chances that 1% isn't something easier to explain? Quite low, really. Just take a look back in history at how supersticious people were. They burned people as witches and craziness like that all because they didn't think things out more fully.

But in no way I'm I saying there aren't witches (or aliens or ghosts). I'm just saying that most cases are something else. And the ones they can't explain away just need more study.

Quote:
So there's a ghost in the house, big deal, it's not hurting me or anyone else.
oh, okay. Posted Image I'd love to see a ghost. I've only ever had those corner of the eye sitings. Once I saw these weird symbols on my window blinds. I'm sure it was the leaves on the tree outside. But it sure looked like something sinister. I've heard voices (I sleep with ear plugs, so it would have to be loud). I dog barked in the middle of the night once but I woke up to a person screaming. It turned into my dog barking. So I don't know! Maybe my dog is possessed. Posted Image
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#51 of 251 OFFLINE   Radioman970

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Posted August 09 2006 - 08:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
If that's the case, than this thread is history, have a fun debate gentlemen. Posted Image
I'm being honest with you. Don't walk away thinking different.

Seriously, think things through fully. It's much more fun to believe in Santa Claus, but that don't make it the real thing even though mom and dad gave you "eye-witness accounts". Same with ghosts and stuff. Posted Image
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#52 of 251 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted August 09 2006 - 09:02 AM

FYI, BrianW's interesting post was written with tongue firmly in cheek. Rest assured, the gentleman appreciates science.

(Don't we have a thread like this one about once or twice a year?)

#53 of 251 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted August 09 2006 - 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Briggs
FYI, BrianW's interesting post was written with tongue firmly in cheek. Rest assured, the gentleman appreciates science.

(Don't we have a thread like this one about once or twice a year?)

Yup, and it is usually BrianW's excellent writing that comes in to bail out my shoot from the hip, over sensitive, blunt instrument style, so that a group hug all around is the end result. I'm glad I could return the favor lest anyone else miss his subtle brand of sarcasm, uhhm, err, commentary. Posted Image

#54 of 251 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted August 09 2006 - 09:36 AM

To expand on Brian’s superbly written post, no rational person could possibly say that the level of knowledge about reality acquired via the scientific method is not vastly greater and vastly more useful than using one’s “intuition” or “feelings” (IOW not using science). Really, what sensible person prefers a faith healer or witch doctor to a modern medical doctor? An alchemist to a modern chemist? An astrologer to a modern astronomer? A man with a “divining rod” to a modern geologist? Look around you and tell me how much of modern civilization could exist without science, and how much knowledge of the world was acquired to make it happen.

#55 of 251 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted August 09 2006 - 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
To expand on Brian’s superbly written post, no rational person could possibly say that the level of knowledge about reality acquired via the scientific method is not vastly greater and vastly more useful than using one’s “intuition” or “feelings” (IOW not using science). Really, what sensible person prefers a faith healer or witch doctor to a modern medical doctor? An alchemist to a modern chemist? An astrologer to a modern astronomer? A man with a “divining rod” to a modern geologist? Look around you and tell me how much of modern civilization could exist without science, and how much knowledge of the world was acquired to make it happen.

Unfortunately, there are the mystics, the paranormalists and the Luddites in this world that would quite prefer the things you mention over their scientific equivalents, with no more thought given to the process that "it just feels correct". Posted Image

#56 of 251 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted August 09 2006 - 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I've been a believer in the paranormal all my life and am not given to influence by what I see on television and in the tabloids.
If you have been a believer all your life, you obviously came to a conclusion before examining any facts. This is counter to a reasoned position, where one observes, analyzes, draws conclusions and adjusts those conclusions as new observations don’t fit the model constructed.

Cleary your view on the paranormal is a belief, which is not subject to change—something that is counter to the scientific method. Of course you are not forced to consider the scientific method to be of value, but as has already been noted, the scientific method has produced results—as far as I can tell, non-scientific, paranormal investigation has produced nothing (I except any rigorous investigations, none of which I am aware, indicate the presence of ghosts).
Quote:
I do question, i'm not naive, I read and I listen, those that say that "it's the house settling or rats in the walls" aren't, IMO, considering the possibility that it is what it is, an unexplained occurance due to a presance. I also happen to think that ghosts and haunting phenominon are no big deal, they are harmless most of the time and they are simply part of the unknown universe.

So there's a ghost in the house, big deal, it's not hurting me or anyone else.
Here you have gone from an unfounded belief, to actually believing that you can know not only the phenomena, but the personality.
¡Time is not my master!

#57 of 251 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted August 09 2006 - 10:01 AM

Once again, as what happens to every thread like this one, the believer always becomes the subject of mildly disguised taunts under the guise of "speaking scientifically and honestly".

And you wondered why I used a word like 'kook' in my earlier post, because that's how people ultimately see a guy like me, and you know what, so be it. You guys want proof when you can't even provide proof to the contrary (yes I did read that earlier, Holadem), so, you can't provide solid proof and I can't provide solid proof, so now what?

More wheel spinning I suppose.

This is a no win situation for either party, surely you can see that?

You believe what you like and i'll do the same.
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#58 of 251 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted August 09 2006 - 10:19 AM

You know what would be fun, but tough to arrange?

Have a Home Theater Forum 'UFO Night' and Ghost night. For the Ghost night, the areas that have the most concentrated HTF Members go out to a local haunted location and spend the night with Video Cameras, Technical Readers and electricity spike detectors, and even a local credited psychic.
Document the whole thing on camera and post one noce a month. Who knows, maybe someone will find something?

#59 of 251 OFFLINE   Radioman970

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Posted August 09 2006 - 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
Once again, as what happens to every thread like this one, the believer always becomes the subject of mildly disguised taunts under the guise of "speaking scientifically and honestly".

And you wondered why I used a word like 'kook' in my earlier post, because that's how people ultimately see a guy like me, and you know what, so be it. You guys want proof when you can't even provide proof to the contrary (yes I did read that earlier, Holadem), so, you can't provide solid proof and I can't provide solid proof, so now what?

More wheel spinning I suppose.

This is a no win situation for either party, surely you can see that?

You believe what you like and i'll do the same.
If you're firm on what you believe then stick with it! You're taking everything here personal? Why? It's just a forum and people from all over the place are going to have opinions different from yours quite often. I'm not taking anything personal that you've said. I sure as hell didn't call you a kook. The most I said was give these things some thought before you draw your conclusion. I really don't think you are doing that.

In discussions EVERYBODY wins.

I'll question my own thoughts and beliefs if someone gives me a reason to. Give me a reason. Posted Image
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#60 of 251 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted August 09 2006 - 10:33 AM

Quote:
You guys want proof when you can't even provide proof to the contrary
Did you read my post where I said no one needs to prove a negative, John? It simply makes no sense to say “anything is true unless proven otherwise”.


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